how our polyamorous clients build thriving relationships

How to Handle Jealousy in Polyamory

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If you practice polyamory there WILL be times you feel jealousy. Anyone who tells you otherwise is BSing you, and themselves.

Jealousy feels awful. And left unresolved, it will poison everything in your relationship. 

But what if there was a way to fall in love with jealousy? To use it as a tool to make your relationship better than it’s ever been? We’re going to teach you the 3-step process our polyamorous clients use to do exactly that.

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Cassie 0:00
Today we're talking about jealousy and the time that I got super jealous.

Josh 0:05
So stay tuned.

Cassie 0:26
Here at Touch of Flavor, we teach non monogamous folks how to overcome their obstacles and build thriving relationships.

Josh 0:32
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box? Even if nothing has ever worked before? If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place.

Cassie 0:45
All of this information is 100% free. So please subscribe to and review our podcast.

Josh 0:56
So Cassie, you're back?

Cassie 0:58
Yes. I'm no longer sounding like Jessica Holmes,

Josh 1:02
Elizabeth Homes.

Cassie 1:02
Elizabeth Homes, that's what it is. Yes. It was very devastating.

Josh 1:02
It was anybody who hasn't watched the drop out on Netflix. It's got Elizabeth Holmes and she's got the whole voice going. And when Cassie was circling back

Cassie 1:13
in there and inspiring step forward, my voice sounded very much like her.

Josh 1:18
Well, yeah, we kept having her say devastating. And this is an inspiring step forward. If you haven't watched the show. It's excellent.

Cassie 1:24
Yeah, it's actually a really good show.

Josh 1:25
Hulu's got some good documentaries going right now.

Cassie 1:29
Yeah, we've been watching that and...

Josh 1:32
The girl from Plainville, Plainfield? I don't know either way, way more depressing, than the Dropout?

Cassie 1:36
Yeah, definitely more depressing. But yeah, we've been watching some documentaries and such. So that's been cool.

Josh 1:42
I mean, are they documentaries, though? If they're like, partially fictional?

Cassie 1:45
Like mockumentaries?

Josh 1:46
Well, I don't know. They're based on true stories, but they're not like 100%.

Cassie 1:50
It's like, it's like stories that are based on true stories that are not that are that are added pizzazz to make them the more interesting.

Josh 2:02
I will say this I while I like the dropout better, mainly because it's not just as like depressing. And I find the topic super interesting. The girl from Plainville, which for anybody who doesn't know is based on like the whole suicide texting case. And I have to say, on the one hand, like I don't know if I'd recommend it, because like, it's pretty frickin depressing. But on the other hand, the way they did it, like both the acting and the way, they shot it, and decided to go with like, some of the interactions is like amazing. So I don't know if I'd recommend it. But it's pretty impressive. At the same time, they do this really cool thing where they have the characters, like the conversations, because most of the conversations they have are over text, but they have them acting out talking to each other. Like they'll like start texting, it'll like switch to a shot at them, like the actors sitting there talking to each other and like acting, it's really, it's really well done.

Cassie 3:06
It's really well done. And I think also, you can't really have a whole movie where people are just texting back and forth, and you're just reading text messages. That would be really annoying really quickly.

Josh 3:15
Yeah, but I feel like I can't recommend it. Unless you're really interested in the legal stuff behind the case, which I was, but it's really well done. I'll put it that way.

Cassie 3:25
If you like those kinds of like, documentary, like drama things. It's a good, good show to watch.

Josh 3:33
But

Cassie 3:34
My voice is back was where we're at.

Josh 3:38
Yes, your voice is back. And with that, your voice is back because we were where?

Cassie 3:47
We were in California.

Josh 3:51
Yep.

Cassie 3:51
For a little while.

Josh 3:52
For what? 10 days, I think.

Cassie 3:54
Nine days. Yes. We were there. Nine days and came back. We were away on training, which was awesome.

Josh 4:03
Yeah, it was fun. So we go, I mean, we're in training all the time, but we physically go what like three times a year I think so we're going to June. But we went we went out to California. I have to say the weather there was gorgeous. But it was amazing. Super awesome people, super awesome training. They don't qualify as vacations because they're super busy. But just going and training and up leveling and growing. And it's always just being around other, other coaches who are the top of their fields and helping people and it's always it's a really amazing environment and always come back like really fired up and on purpose and ready to rock and it's always awesome to go do what was your biggest takeaway?

Cassie 4:49
Oh my gosh, from going?

Josh 4:51
Yep.

Cassie 4:52
Um, just really how impactful what we do is you know, we were talking to other coaches, because there's coaches from all over the world that come to these, these trainings. And, you know, folks, we're talking about the impact that some of us have, you know, some of the health coaches who are sitting there talking about how they, you know, not only help their clients, but how their clients are able to show up in the rest of their lives. And thinking about that, and thinking about how, what we do, how, you know, we have these individuals and couples that we work with, and we help not only make them have better thriving romantic relationships, but that, like spreads to their kids and their work environments, and how really, that just is so needed, right, that when we are able to help our clients have fulfilling relationships, because those things are the most important, how much their other parts of their lives get to be more fulfilling too.

Josh 5:58
Well I don't have anything to tack on to that, so...

Cassie 6:04
And I just wing that. I mean, I mean, but that really was my biggest takeaway. I mean, we have so many learnings that we brought back to be able to like, share with our clients and work with our clients and things like that. But the biggest takeaway is just how important good relationships are, and how important it is to be able to help people and serve people to more fulfilling lives. For me, that was my big distinction.

Josh 6:29
And then we came back and we quarantined for a couple days and then we were sick, but we reintegrated but it wasn't COVID. So quarantine for couple days and we were sick. Then we were integrated. We went to like a fun thing, last night with a friend had like a poly kink that was more poly get together. Yeah. At their house. They did like some fire spinning and a little lion went out there and got a little toy. Not fire. Yeah, she's not old enough for that. Little glowing ball.

Cassie 6:56
Yeah, it was like a family friendly. It was open to lifestyle people but was family friendly. potluck barbecue spin thing. It was really cool. She was like out there. She saw our friend spitting fire. And she was like, "You spin fire. I spin ball." She was like super, super, super excited about it. Little future fire spinner. I'm not sure what we taught her about fire.

Josh 7:27
I was thinking that last night. It's like people eating fire and stuff. And I'm like the tea girl saying they're going "uh huh, this make's sense." And I'm like, but she liked the fire spinning. So she was super excited about that. I think she thinks her friend is even cooler now than before.

Cassie 7:42
Yeah

Josh 7:43
So that was pretty neat. But yeah, but lots of live stuff going on. I'm not sure we'll have more to share next go round. But you know, in the meantime, I think we should hop into the topics of the day. What do you think?

Cassie 7:53
Yes.

Josh 7:54
All right, let's rock.

Josh 8:00
All right, everybody. So today we wanted to talk about jealousy, you know, the bane of non monogamous existence. You know, the one thing that everybody who's monogamous assumes you're gonna have when you're not monogamous. And then the thing that obviously, a lot of non monogamous people struggle with, although, I think in in different ways than most monogamous people expect, expect us to struggle with. Right? And I'm certainly sure that we're going to get into that. But we wanted to talk about jealousy, because jealousy is something that is incredibly common in non monogamy. And if you are in a place where you're struggling with jealousy, then chances are not only do you have kind of have piled on top of you like the feelings, you know, the jealousy, the insecurity, the worry, that discomfort when your partner is doing, whatever the worry, they're going to leave, like all those things. But it's also pretty likely that on top of it, you now have like this huge sense of guilt, that you shouldn't feel jealous that it's wrong to feel jealous, and not just a sense of that that comes from within you, I'd say. Right, but a sense of that that is coming from the community as a whole like from what you're being told, So Cassie, what do people get told about jealousy when they're feeling jealous?

Cassie 9:24
So often, they are told that you're wrong for feeling jealous, so you're not poly enough. Like if you were just poly enough, you wouldn't feel jealous? Or if you're feeling jealousy, maybe you just shouldn't, shouldn't do this. Maybe you should just not be polyamorous right? And it's this idea that in order to be a good poly person, you have to get over jealousy and like move past it. And often, there's this idea that like jealousy is a bad thing that it's like evil or wrong or immoral in your relationships.

Josh 10:04
But we're gonna talk about all that today.

Cassie 10:05
Yeah!

Josh 10:06
Yeah.

Cassie 10:06
So there's these ideas and it as you said, it builds this guilt or like feeling bad for yourself about the feelings that you already have. So it's just a very interesting thing that happens with that, that causes even more problems.

Josh 10:22
Well you kind of wind up-- oh yeah, sorry. You kind of wind up at war with yourself right? Because you're, you're not only do you have whatever's going on that's causing you to feel jealous, then you have the jealousy on top of it. Now you have the guilt for feeling jealous, right? And not just your own guilt, but the guilt other people are piling on top of you. And really, you know, this is one of those things that is so misrepresented in the polyamorous communities that points is this idea of jealousy, being wrong being a monster, how to fix like pretty much everything as far as like what you've been told about jealousy and dealing with it is probably wrong. Right. But I just want to acknowledge that a lot of times there's this this, this kind of picture, that there's kind of the spectrum of jealousy. And on the one hand, like if you reach a certain level of poly, you know, you achieve like enough experience points or whatever, it'll go away. And on the other hand, if you're if you can't, you know, if you're struggling with jealousy that you know, that's a sign that you need to stop being polyamorous and we're going to address that, but I just wanna start with the fact that like, everybody feels jealousy at certain points, and anyone who tells you otherwise is bullshitting you and bullshitting themselves. Go ahead, I can tell you what to throw something in.

Cassie 11:28
Oh, I was just gonna say "dammit, I met level 35. You mean I don't get my badge where like suddenly like, my, my human emotions just go out the door? And like, I now become like the poly superhero that I always wanted to be?"

Josh 11:44
We have a friend who has a shirt that says like, what is it, plus five to sextarity?

Cassie 11:47
Yeah.

Josh 11:48
And no, it's that isn't that isn't how it works.

Cassie 11:52
Shucks, man. I've been doing this for a long time.

Josh 11:55
I know! And well, and with that, right, like I said, and anybody who tells you that they don't feel jealous, like they're it's just, it's just absolute bullshit. And I'm not saying they feel jealous all the time. Right? Certainly the idea is that as you go further and further on this journey, you get less jealous, right? But Jealousy is a normal thing that everybody has come up. Right? And here's the thing about jealousy, right? It isn't, the jealousy is evil. It isn't that you're bad for feeling it. Right? It isn't that like it means you're not poly, but it does suck. Like it sucks to feel jealous.

Cassie 12:31
And if not handled, it can potentially cause even more damage to your relationships and things like that. So we're not saying that it's not problematic. What we're saying is that having jealousy occasionally is normal.

Josh 12:45
Well, and because there's a problem. So with what you're saying with that, right? Like, wherever there is jealousy, we just talked, there is guilt, right? There is resentment that winds up getting built up. And if you leave that unchecked, those emotions will poison everything in the relationship. But the thing and the other thing that we're gonna talk about right is isn't just that it's not just the guilt in the resentment, the jealousy itself, right? It's whatever problem underlies underneath that can potentially be very damaging. So it isn't that you don't want to take a hard look at jealousy when it comes up. Right? But when you really understand jealousy, you'll be able to put that guilt, you'll be able to put that resentment behind you, and your relationships will be even better than before. And you know, I know people like talking about how they don't have jealousy. I know you have a story that you'd like to tell about a time you got super jealous over something that most people would think was absolutely just like silly and ridiculous. And small.

Cassie 13:38
Yes. So, so it's actually with our first like, shared partner that Josh and I had, and it was more than a year into the relationship and we had slept together. I'd seen the two of you do stuff together, we've like spent nights together like it was very like entwined relationship at that point. And through that, like I really had not felt jealous at all. Like I...

Josh 14:09
Cassie was like: "I am a Ninja."

Cassie 14:10
I am a Ninja.

Josh 14:11
"I am that that, that level 35."

Cassie 14:13
Yeah, like I felt really good about it. And then we went to a party and got back really late and decided to do like the diner thing. And we made our orders and I went off to the bathroom. And I came back from the bathroom. And there's, there's Josh, and there's her, and they're just sitting there talking away, which I was like, awh, and then approaching her face was this red circular object. It was a tomato. And I lost my shit. I was furious. And if you're sitting there going like what just hold on for a sec. Here's the thing like Josh and I had been together for like, three and a half, four years at that point. And Josh hates tomatoes like, like, does not like tomatoes.

Josh 15:11
The texture. They're just gross.

Cassie 15:13
They're wonderful. They're literally, one of my favorite foods.

Josh 15:14
Like ketchup's okay. tomato sauces, okay?

Cassie 15:17
Anyway, so he doesn't like, he doesn't like tomatoes. And I am like a big fan of tomatoes. So in our relationship, Josh has always given me tomatoes, right? Like, it's always been like, Oh, here's my sandwich, here's the tomato, all this tomato on the side, it's yours. And, girl was at my tomato, okay, and I was not happy about that. And it was because for me, right underneath, like that tomato represented, like, our several year long relationship and like my place in Josh's life, like I was literally getting replaced, because this other person can now be the person who eats Josh's tomatoes. And I see your face just,

Josh 16:03
No, I'm fine.

Cassie 16:04
Every time I tell this story, you just sit there like,

Josh 16:06
It's totally cool.

Cassie 16:08
So right? I was not okay with that. Like, I really, really, really got upset, like so much so that I had to like, walk my happy ass back to the bathroom and like calm down for a minute, right? And that's the thing, like, a lot of times we think, Oh, I know when it's going to be it's going to be the first time my partner kisses somebody, or it's going to be, you know, the first time they sleep with somebody or this that and the other. Sometimes jealousy pops up in like the most unusual places that you would never guess like, of course, there's like the usual things like maybe someone interacting with your kids or the first time you have sex. But sometimes it can be something as small as a tomato, like, even as small as a cherry tomato, right? So it can be those things that come up, and then you have to kind of deal with it from there. Anything else you want me to add into that story of ridiculousness?

Josh 17:06
So there's a couple things about that example. Right? You know, one, one thing with that, right, is that, you know, a lot of times it isn't the sex. You know, we-- a lot of times, like when you know it, maybe maybe at first, but a lot of times, like it's the little things, it's a little things that you don't necessarily expect to cause jealousy, that cause the hardest feelings. And we have a friend actually the same one with the shirt. Who used to say that, you know, like, once you've been non monogamous for a while isn't necessarily like your partner sleeping with somebody else that brings up the feelings, right? It's like when you go to your house, and your spoons are in the wrong spot, right? Because like somebody decided to put your spoon somewhere else. Like, a lot of times it those little things

Cassie 17:49
Your literal spoons, not like your emotional spoons, like literally your kitchens.

Josh 17:52
Right, but it also can be and I want to use that as an example. Right? But it also can be really big things. Right? It can be really big things that come up, you know, I was thinking as we were going into this lesson, I haven't actually talked to you about this. But like, you know, I was thinking, what's my example that I have? For, you know, like, the time that really sticks out for me, and it was not nearly as cute. Like it was, it was a point years ago, it was, you know, like that point that we talked about, like where our relationship was, like on the rocks. And like, we didn't know if we were going to make it. And you had talked about, like sleeping with somebody else. That's kind of like a thing to piss me off. And like, I still, like I can still put myself back in that moment. Right? So some of those things are little, right? Some of them are big. And at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, right? The the size of like, like, it doesn't really matter what the size is of the jealousy. Right? But what's important is to understand what that jealousy really is, and how it works and why it's important. I wanted to bring that in because that's going to be I think when we're kind of breaking down how to deal with jealousy. I think that's actually I think yours is a good fun example. I think that's actually gonna be a little bit better example, though, of how people aren't thinking about it. Right? So let's just start here again with kind of the conventional wisdom and the conventional wisdom in the poly community is that we kind of said like a jealousy is evil. It's a sign you're not really polyamorous. You know, if you just get enough experience points, enough level, you know, that will vanish. And as we said, that isn't true. Right? And what I want to kind of start with is this understanding that feeling jealous is normal. Right? Like feeling jealous is absolutely normal.

Cassie 19:58
Yeah, I like to tell folks it's not like it's some dark scary monster in the closet. Right? Like it's not this mystical being that is hiding there waiting to attack you. Right? Our, our jealousy is just a part of being human right? It's just like any other emotion, like, you know, being angry, being upset, whatever. Like we are all human and we all have negative emotions at times.

Josh 20:26
And one thing I just want to throw here one second, right is those feelings really jealousy is just a feeling, right? Jealousy is actually a really unspecific way to talk about feelings we'll talk about that in a second but jealousy is just a feeling and feelings are just a part of being humans, you know, when you you have for those you out there who have kids, right? And like, you know, you have like, we've got a two year old right now. Right? And, you know, she gets upset over some ridiculous stuff right now.

Cassie 20:54
A shoe not being a hat.

Josh 20:56
A shoe not being a hat. What was the thing yesterday? Us not letting her run out and dance with the fire spinners. We were we were out at a thing with some people yesterday. Right? Because she had a little ball. She wanted to go jump in the middle of a fire and swinging around like, it being bedtime every single night.

Cassie 21:17
Yeah

Josh 21:18
Again,

Cassie 21:18
That's always

Josh 21:20
Like,

Cassie 21:20
it's her heartbreaking moment every day.

Josh 21:22
And you might, you might sit there and you might be like, okay, like, that's kind of a, but you don't like, "fuck's with you, kid?" Like, "get over it!" Right? Like you don't you don't lash out? I hope, that's a whole different discussion. Right? But you don't like lash out at your little ones for having emotions for being human even when it's silly. Right? And but we don't give ourselves or each other. More so. Right? Or ourselves. That same level of compassion, like those feelings are just a part of being human.

Cassie 22:07
Yeah. And do you want to talk about defining jealousy? A little bit? And?

Josh 22:15
Well, the other problem and we kind of encourage our clients to stop using the word jealous. I mean, if you want to talk about that for a minute.

Cassie 22:21
Yeah. And the reason is, is because jealousy is not like, it's, it can be a group of emotions, right? It's not like its own individual thing.

Josh 22:33
Jealousy is kind of a blanket phrase that we use for this whole group of bad feels without having to really dive into what's going on.

Cassie 22:39
Yeah. Because jealousy can be insecurities like I'm feeling insecure. Jealousy can be loneliness, you know, it can be I'm angry at you, or I'm wanting something that someone else has, which is actually envy, not jealousy. You know, there's all kinds of different emotions wrapped in. And when you sit there, and you talk about jealousy, and just, I'm jealous, well, that's doesn't really get you anywhere. It's not really helpful. Right? So one of the things that we tell our clients is just kind of take that jealous word and just kind of like Nix it, because it's not really going to serve you.

Josh 23:11
Yeah. And you went back to that, like that, that just did being a feeling, right, whatever that feeling is, it's insecurity, it's loneliness, it's just as whatever, like, when you're having a really shitty day, like your dog died, or your boss was an ass at work, or whatever, right? And like, you're having a shitty day, and you just, like, want to come home and you just sit there, like, you need a cookie. Like, no one is surprised with that. And he's like, you know, nobody tells you, you're wrong for that. Right? And again, if they do, that's a whole different discussion. Right? But for the most part, like you understand, and the people in your life understand, when you have things that feel bad, it isn't something that you have to be made wrong for either by yourself, or by anybody else. Right? And jealousy shouldn't be any different.

Cassie 24:09
Yeah, and it's not that those feelings are wrong. Just like any other time, we have those feelings. It's about how we handle them, how we process them, how we put our actions into play and the rest of our world, right, it's how we actually deal with the emotions that come up for us.

Josh 24:30
Yeah, well, yeah. Cuz you can kind of you can deal with those emotions in a way where you know, it's positive and you process them and you have your cookie or whatever, right? Or you can deal with those emotions by going out and blowing up your relationship over. And so certainly like when you're talking about jealousy, these hard emotions, right? It isn't so much about like we said the size of it, or, you know, the size of the feelings or right or wrong is it is about how you're dealing with those emotions like you do. Dealing with him in a positive way or a neutral way or a negative way. But here's the other pieces. And this is where I want to really dive in. Because, you know, thus far, kind of the common advice around jealousy is, you know, beyond just you shouldn't have it, it's just it's your feelings, deal with it. Right? And people spend a lot of time there. So we're not actually going to spend as much, because you've probably heard deal with your jealousy deal with your emotions about a million times by now if you're struggling with jealousy. Right? I want to talk about, I think you want to talk about, the part of jealousy that most people miss, and by people, I mean, authors, I mean, people in your polygroups, I mean, quote, unquote, experts, but like, you know,

Cassie 25:53
The "Gurus"

Josh 25:53
the Gurus, right, like the part that 90 plus percent of people miss, because for most people, they want to sit here and they want to fixate on the feeling of the thing and dealing with the feeling. Right. And you do need to do that. But when that's all that you do, you're missing so much, right? Because that-- those feelings, that sense of jealousy, it's usually just the tip of the iceberg.

Cassie 26:33
Yeah, there's typically, right. Most of the time there is something under the feelings, right? That feeling is there for a reason. It's putting a spotlight or a highlighter, on something that needs to be addressed, that jealousy is an indicator, it's a hey, something needs some looking at right now. So you want to go over some examples?

Josh 26:58
I do, but I just want to put a pin in this for just a second, because I really want you to pay attention here this this again, this is the part that most people do not understand about jealousy, it is not enough to deal with a feeling most of the time when you are feeling jealous, there is a reason that you are feeling jealous, right? This isn't some like unwarranted feeling that you have conjured out of nowhere, that is very occasionally the case, but usually that is not what's going on. Usually, that jealousy, that insecurity, those hard feelings, they are an indicator of something real and tangible, that needs to change usually have a problem, right, or something that's lacking, that needs to be fixed. And when you ignore that, right, and you go on, and you just try to deal with the feeling. The problem is you're chasing after your own tail. Because you're working on the feeling, but you're never working on the actual problem that's causing the feelings, you just find yourself back in the same spot over and over and over again, examples, I'll give a couple and then you can give a couple?

Cassie 28:17
Well, I was gonna say I can start off with a small one. So we talked about the tomato thing. And that even of itself, that tiny one was an indicator that at the time, I really needed to work on my self image and my own, like, like beliefs around myself and my own confidence because I was lacking confidence at that time. Right. So that was something that needed to be worked on.

Josh 28:42
And that is a really and I'd say even like unusually tiny one, right? Because lots of times, it isn't just an indicator of something it needs to be worked on in you. But it's something that needs to be worked on in the relationship.

Cassie 28:55
And that's what I was gonna say was that, that was the tomatoes, right? Whereas you're gonna give some examples that are bigger and are going to show that.

Josh 29:02
Well, that's exactly why I use this other example. Right? Because at that point where we were in that place, right, the problem wasn't that you were talking about sleeping with somebody else like that was actually entirely inside of our agreements at the time. Right? The problem was where our relationship was at in that moment, right. The problem was, was that we were talking about breaking up, right, the problem, it was, you know, if we'd had the same conversation, two weeks earlier, I would have been fine. But the problem was at that point, I was I was feeling insecure and like I was going to be replaced because I already kind of felt like I was on the way out. Right? And there's 100 other and that's that's why I'd wanted to bring that in, because that's actually a more typical example of when people come to us and say that they're jealous. There's a problem underneath, right? You know, your partner, forgot about your anniversary and then took-- and I'm using real examples here. This is all stuff I've heard recently, right? Your partner forgot about your anniversary and then took their new partner out to a hotel the next weekend, right? You've been, you know, for years feeling like you're not getting sex, and your partner's always telling you Oh, they're too tired, they're not interested, they just don't have the libido anymore. And now they've got somebody new and like, they just can't shut up about how amazing the sex is and like that's all they want to do. Or, you know, your partner never has enough time for you. But, you know, damn if they can't drive an hour away three times a week to go see this new person. Go ahead.

Cassie 29:03
Oh, I was going to say

Josh 29:31
Or this not new person! I mean, it isn't about them being new or not, go ahead.

Cassie 30:16
I can't say I can't tell you how many times you know, like we, we haven't had a date night in years. But you know, you're you're taking your other partner to like fancy dinners, and this, that and the other and doing all that, right. Like there's always this. We constantly hear it from folks where there's these things that have been lacking in their relationships, and then they're seeing their partner, being able to do those things elsewhere.

Josh 31:08
And here's an here's an important piece, right? It can either be a tangible thing in the relationship that you feel like you're missing and somebody else is getting, whether it's the communication, the value, the time, the intimacy, the whatever the attention, the affection...

Cassie 31:25
Support.

Josh 31:25
Support.

Cassie 31:26
That's a big one, especially for the parents out there.

Josh 31:30
Or this is the other thing that most people don't understand, though, right? Because we talked about this, this lump that really is like we just phrase jealousy, right? And often when people are talking about jealousy, they're talking about insecurity, it's really it's close enough look like. So these are all kind of blanket terms that when we don't go deep enough on things, right. But what I want to point out to you, is that really a lot of of that jealousy, insecurity, whatever, a lot of times, right, that comes at the root of it from a feeling of worry about being replaced, right, whether that's being replaced, like entirely, or just losing the place the-- I wanna say position.

Cassie 32:16
The role in that person's life.

Josh 32:17
Role is good, losing that role that you currently have in your partner's life to somebody else. Right? And sometimes, that's because there's something that you're wanting or been asking for, that you're not getting, or you feel like things are unbalanced. But sometimes, and this goes back to the example I was giving, right? It's just because you don't feel solid in your own place in your partner's relationship. Right? It's that that sense of being insecure, you know, if we're in a spot where our relationship isn't stable, you know, we've been talking about breaking up, we're fighting we're happy, we feel like roommates were already wondering if we shouldn't be together, right? Or we're just kind of existing, like, our relationships already on the rocks. Well, then pretty much anything is going to be threatening, right? Because, I mean, again, it's that feeling like I'm already kind of on the way out to begin with, right? So anything new is going to be super threatening, or anything, not new, anything at all is going to be threatening. I mean, honestly, it'd be threatening if there wasn't something else there. Right. But another relationship just gives us that. That contrast. That contrast of that place, like I said, that was kind of the thing in my example, right? The problem wasn't you sleeping with somebody, the problem was, we were on the rocks in that moment. Do you want to throw anything else onto the because I feel like that, that's a huge piece that people missing don't understand is that, you know, it doesn't have to be missing something. It can just be your relationship. Already feeling unstable.

Cassie 33:57
Yeah, cuz anytime like, and this is just normal, right? Anytime we have something new introduced into our lives, it creates some uncertainty. Right? So there's new job uncertainty, new partner, some uncertainty, right? Anytime we introduce new things into our life, there's this this shakeup. But when we're in a good place, and we have that shake up, it's like, alright, we can deal with that. We're a team, we can do this. Well, when you're in that place where you're on the verge of breaking up, or you've been fighting, or there's been that-- that disconnection there for so long. When you throw that uncertainty in there. Well, then it's like that, you know, I mentioned earlier that jealousy isn't the big monster that is a big monster then, right? That is a threatening thing because you recognize that you were already just hanging on. And you were trying to just keep things together and now you've got something that's making things a little on wobbly. And it's a reality. Right, and that's the thing I really want to throw in here is that when you're in that place, that little shake can be the thing that breaks, right? Whereas when your relationship is sturdy, that little bit of a shakable thing, yeah, it might be some emotions you have to process it might be some difficulties that you have. But you have the ability to work past it. And you know, you can.

Josh 35:20
Well, and so this is, this is what so this is what I want you to understand, right, is that, when you're in this place, you have a good reason to have these hard feelings, right. Number one, this is what this is the thing about non monogamy, non monogamy as beautiful as it is the one thing that it does, which can be both a huge blessing and a huge curse, is it shines a light on everywhere that your relationship is already weak. It does that for you. And it does it for your partner. So not only does you know being in a relationship, your partner being in a relationship, shine a light on where your relationship is lacking, right, so Cassie and I are together, and you know, we're not having time, we don't have intimacy, whatever, not only when she starts dating somebody else, and she's in love and connected and super excited to go over there and can't stop talking about them. Not only is that shine a light for me on how far our relationships fallen, which is gonna make me feel bad. But it shines a light for her on how poor our relationship has become if it has become poor, right. And this is the problem when you're in that place that worry about being replaced. I know this is gonna go against everything that everybody wants to tell you. But sometimes that can be a very well founded fear. Like if we're just about where we're arguing we're fighting. We're struggling all the time. Like we're already on the rocks. And I'm my partner, is somebody new and amazing. That may make them less willing to tolerate what's going on here. Go ahead.

Cassie 36:43
Yeah. And like if I'm recognizing that I can spend time here under stress, and annoyance, and worry, and bickering and arguing, or I can spend time over here with like, fun, exciting partner, where am I going to spend my time, right? So it's not necessarily that people go into it that way or even consciously, it's that when you're in that spot, people start to go towards the things that are more comfortable and fun and easy. Versus dealing with the relationship where there's turmoil and stress and strife, right? Like that happens. So that reality, so that scary thing does become a reality, where you don't, your partner is like not doing it consciously, like, Oh, I'm replacing this partner with this one. But where just in terms of where they spend their time, their energy, their attention, where they turn, ends up being in a different direction than turning towards the relationship where there is difficulty and stress.

Josh 37:46
And this is the cycle that happens in this a lot of times, right? So our relationship struggling, you know, we're arguing, we're fighting, we're unhappy, there's no intamcy, whatever, right? My partner has somebody new and amazing, right? Who they're drawing close to, and in them drawing close, and in that light being shown on the relationship, right. And in that spotlight on what's lacking between us. Now, I'm feeling jealous and insecure. Right, so now I have these hard emotions. Now I lash out. Now I'm-- our relationship's even worse, and I'm pushing you further away. And really the net effect of that is I'm pushing you further into this other person's arms. I mean, I hate to say it like that. But that's the truth. Because as this relationship gets worse, as long as that other relationship is still good, it's going to start to look more and more attractive, and you're gonna start to spend more and more of your time and your energy and your effort there.

Cassie 38:42
And focus.

Josh 38:43
And this is this is what's so important about this and listen. I'm not saying this is always the case, but when it is the case, and a lot of times it is the case that there's really something underneath these feelings. You know, being like "just deal with the feelings" is a useless conversation. Number one, because what I mean because the cycle is going to perpetuate, right like until you actually deal with the root issues. Not only are those feelings going to keep coming up, but the problem that's underneath is going through this cycle to keep getting made worse until there's not a relationship there. So, you know, ignoring the reality behind the feelings really is just a guarantee that the situation is gonna get worse and those feelings are going to get worse right going back to that example I'd give him with us again if I had just been like Well the problem is now you're talking about sleeping with somebody and not that we're talking about breaking up and I'm just going to try and get to a point of feeling okay with you talking about sleeping with somebody. What good does that do? Like what good does that do? And we're broke up in three months because we were already gonna break up anyways and like Am I really gonna feel good now about you sleeping with somebody like you know what I mean? Like what? What, what would the purpose have been? Like if somebody had come to me and be like, Josh, you really just need to focus on your feelings around Cassie sleeping with other people. Can you imagine if I listened to that? I mean, I knew better than even at the time. Thank God. Right. So I didn't solicit that. But I mean, can you imagine? So anything else you want to throw in there? As far as just like, that challenge, right. And the problem is being underneath in that cycle? I think that cycle is super important. But before we kind of move on to what the solution is.

Cassie 40:32
No, I think you covered it pretty well, it's that idea that, you know, we really need to make sure that we are paying attention to that cycle that we're paying attention to, again, those root causes of the jealousy and not just the feelings, right, not just the the feelings, but the why. And I think that's the really big thing that folks often miss, as we said.

Josh 40:57
Well, and here's what's awesome, right? I don't, this isn't a place where you need to be like creating issues where there aren't. So we're gonna walk through the process in the process that we're going to talk to you about is going to not show you how to resolve the problems, right, but how to separate out what the problems are there. So you know, you're not going to be like, in the spot of like creating problems if there aren't any there.

Cassie 41:20
Yeah.

Josh 41:21
But here's what is great about the jealousy, and the insecurity. And here's why that jealousy and insecurity is awesome. Because it is a place for growth. At a minimum, it's a place for growth within yourself, that goes to your example. Right? At a minimum, it's a place for growth within yourself. But most of the time, it's not only a place for growth within yourself, it is a place for growth within your relationship. Because as we mentioned, what's really going on most of the times, it's shining a light on something in your relationship that was missing, that you were unhappy with, that your partner wasn't happy with it was subpar, maybe even really sucked, that you were tolerating. And what's great about having that put in front of your face and a place that you can't ignore, because that's what happens so often when we're monogamous, or we're not nobody's dating, right? As we just kind of settle and get used to this being what life is and tolerate that I think I talked about that actually in the last episode, when you were all sick. Welcome back, by the way!

Cassie 42:30
Yes.

Josh 42:35
But you can use that as an opportunity as a launching off point, if you choose to use the process, we're going to tell you, you can choose to use that as a launching off point to actually stop settling, and to fix those areas that are weak to get those things that you're missing. And to have a thriving, happy, healthy, loving, intimate relationship. Okay, anything else you wanna throw in there before you-- we talk about the process of how to fix things?

Cassie 43:07
No, I think we covered it.

Josh 43:09
Okay. So, jealousy trifacta, you're gonna talk about the jealousy trifecta?

Cassie 43:15
Sure.

Josh 43:16
So you start with kind of like the prerequisite that that isn't really actually one of the steps.

Cassie 43:21
Sure.

Josh 43:21
Okay. So let's do that.

Cassie 43:22
The first thing, because emotions aren't normal, we are human, the first thing you want to do is not make your feelings wrong, don't have your feelings and be like, I'm a horrible, horrible poly person, I didn't get my like, level 35 badge, right? Like, don't do all that just embrace that you're having normal emotions.

Josh 43:44
And really, we didn't used to include that in this process, which is why this is the trifecta, because the next three steps are actually the steps that you need to take. But this is really critical. Because if you go into this in a place of judging yourself, you're going to sabotage the steps that you're actually need to take, right we already said this. Those feelings are normal, and you can recognize the feelings, you can experience hard feelings, right? And not just experience hard feelings. But you can even dig into why those feelings are there without making yourself wrong for what hurts, right. And not just kind of, I talked earlier about trying to view it maybe in the same way that you would compassion for your kids or if you don't have kids, maybe like a close friend of yours who's suffering. Right and how you wouldn't kick them when they're down and get on them for feeling bad about having a rough day or whatever.

Cassie 44:39
Be your own best friend.

Josh 44:40
Right, but really offering yourself that compassion. And I would also encourage you to in this space as part of that, and it's not making yourself wrong to like I said really look at this as an opportunity to grow as an opportunity to uplevel. Like, maybe even get a little excited about it. Right? Not because jealousy is inherently good, or you know, by getting over it, you'll reach the next level of poly. But because they're that, that, that jealousy shows you again, a place that you can grow at a minimum that you can grow yourself, and more likely that you can grow your relationship in to something that's even better, right. But this is where we really get into the process. Again, don't just stop with like, oh, I have these feelings. And even with, like we said before, really sitting down and breaking down what those feelings are. Right, from there, this is what you need to move into.

Cassie 45:37
So then ask yourself, why truly, why am I feeling these things? Like, why am I feeling angry? Why am I feeling envy? Why am I feeling hurt? Why is that there? That's the first thing is to just be really curious, in your why, why is this happening?

Josh 45:57
And a couple questions you can ask yourself. I mean, first off, if I did know what the problem here is, what would it be? Because I think most of the time, we really, you know, we just don't want to admit it to ourselves. Like, you know, a lot of times I'm talking to people, I'll be like, you know, well, why, why is that? Why is that? And they'll be like, Well, I don't know, I'm like, Well, if you didn't know, what would it be? And then they know, right? Because you know, you just want to admit it to yourself, because we're back to that feeling wrong. Right? If you did know why you were having these hard feelings. Why is it? And also just looking at, like I said, What is it that you're missing? In your relationship with this person? Right? What is it that that's shining a light on? That you're unhappy with her? You've been settling for here? And you're in relation? What are a couple other questions that people can ask to try and figure that out?

Cassie 46:46
One that I like to give our clients is, like, if this is something that is newer, like what has changed? What has changed? And-- and really looking at that? Because if it is, well, what's changed is you're going out on date nights. Well, now I get to like kind of go backwards? Well, why is you going on date nights, like upsetting me? "Ah, it's upsetting me. Because it's not really a new thing. It's because I've been asking for date nights for the last like five years, and I've just been settling. And maybe I haven't been like bawling over it. But it is something that like for the last five years I've been upset about." So that's one that I tell our clients to ask.

Josh 47:32
So really look at that, right? And really just look at what here is just completely no reason no cause feelings that I need to deal with. And what is an indication here something that needs to be changed? Right? So that's kind of step one. And then after you do that, after you figure out, you take a hard look at why you're feeling those things. Now it's time to actually work on those things, work on those core issues. Right, whatever they are, whatever it is that was laying underneath those feelings that's causing it, fix those problems. What are some examples of that? Cassie?

Cassie 48:22
The core issues?

Josh 48:23
Yeah.

Cassie 48:24
Okay, yeah. So first of all, dealing with our connection, if, if one of the things that's coming up for me is that you are really interested in this person, and what's going on is like, you know, I'm noticing what it is, is that I'm not feeling like we're spending time and we're connected, work on that, in our own relationship, rebuild some of that passion and connection and fun that we have. Right? If it's time, if it's, you know, going back to that example of like date nights of like, Oh, we're not-- renegotiate your time actually sit down, and work on your schedule, and fix that and make the time for the relationship. And the other thing is, is making sure that if I'm feeling that wobbliness that big thing with uncertainty in our relationship, start rebuilding the safety and the security in our relationship, start building the things that need to be there for us to feel good. And like we have a future, regardless of the other relationships in non monogamy.

Josh 49:32
Yeah. And from that place of actually having worked on the root issue. So that's step two, step three is now working on the feelings, right? And while I'm saying we're on the things that listen like the whole time, you do need to manage yourself well enough to like, you know, that you're not venting those into into the relationship right but but again, trying to solve those feelings while the problems are there is really just the dog chasing its own tail. Right? So you want to fix the problem as far as actually getting rid of the feelings instead of just like, my feelings aren't causing me to scream in your face and break us up. Right? As far as actually getting rid of those feelings, rather than just managing them in a way where they're not destroying our relationship, you want where the time that you can do that is after fixing the issues. When we're in a spot where we're secure, I'm getting what I want and need here we're having time, we're having intimacy, like, and what's left is I can now look at this and go, Yeah, this is just about my feelings. Right? Like, this isn't about us breaking up, me worried about being replaced like this is just now Cassie wants to sleep with somebody and I have no other reason that that would be a problem. And I just gotta get over that. Okay, cool. Now you can work on the feelings, right? But here's what's awesome about this, you'll find that a lot of those hard feelings were already resolved, like they were resolved to doing the work because they had a good reason to be there. And even the ones that the you know, where you still have feelings that you need to work on, now, it's going to be much easier to solve them. Because you're not just playing whack a mole, every time you know, something happens. And the feeling was about I'm hit it down, but then something happened to get up. Now I gotta whack it down again, right, you're gonna find you can actually solve it like, now you're in a position to actually let those feelings go.

Cassie 51:21
Yeah. And what it does is, you get to handle those root issues so that they stop, you know, popping back up and causing issues. So you're able to move through those. And when you're past those, you're able to make your relationship stronger, more sturdy, more secure, because you've moved past those things that keep coming up and coming up and coming up over and over again.

Josh 51:43
Well, it's really almost kind of the other way around. Right? It's to solve the feelings, you have to improve the relationship. And this is what I was saying earlier, folks, this is the opportunity in this, right? What's great is that in order to get rid of those feelings of jealousy, and insecurity, and unhappiness, you have to build the relationship that you want to have. Right? But again, look at that as something that's awesome, as exciting as amazing, because these are things that you were maybe settling for before that you were unhappy with. Right? And whether it's just that you, you suddenly got shown that there's a better possibility, or you just had stuff, you know, like kind of shined and reflected in such a way that you're no longer willing to settle. It's an enormous opportunity. Right? And so I just want to reflect back to you folks, like as far as the jealousy goes, like, it isn't monsters, it isn't this big monster hiding in the closet, you're not wrong or evil for having it. Right. It's perfectly normal. And the people that tell you it's not are just full of shit, right? But with that, you need to look at it, and you need to address it, and you need to look at it not just in terms of, oh, I have these feelings. And if I just deal with the feelings, you know, I'll-- no, you need to look at what's underneath. Right? And in doing that, not only do you actually finally overcome the jealousy and the insecurity, right? But again, it is an opportunity to build just an amazing, thriving, beautiful relationship. If you seize that. Anything else, Cassie?

Cassie 53:16
No, I think that about covers it.

Josh 53:18
All right, so folks, listen, if you want some help with that, like if you want some help with figure out like what's really underneath the jealousy, solving those root issues, overcoming that getting to a place where you're, you're not just feeling secure, and happy and loved, but you actually are secure, and happy and loved. Like, this is what we help people do every day. Right? We dive through this, like our clients, like obviously, a huge part of what we help them do is overcome jealousy, right? But we help them do that by overcoming the challenges that are in their relationships, that they can overcome the feelings, right. And if you want some help with that, we're happy to help you. Go ahead, hop over to atouchofflavor.com/talk, right? You'll see our calendars go ahead, pick a time that works for you. You know, it'll take you to a little application like just an info we need-- fill that out. But you know, either us or one of our coaches like at the time that you pick, like we'll hop on with you, we'll walk you through step by step through, why are you feeling jealous, what's really underneath that? What needs to be done to turn that around and to fix things? And we'll walk you through it. So like I said, atouchofflavor.com/talk will be amazing. Any other thing you want to throw in here, Cassie, before we pack it in?

Cassie 54:38
No.

Josh 54:39
All right, so folks, we are going to wrap up for the night. The day? It's hard to keep track sometimes.

Cassie 54:47
Whenever you're watching.

Josh 54:48
Whenever you're watching this really, that's kind of what it is. And we will see you all here next week.

Josh 54:59
Thanks for tuning into today's show. We release new episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe.

Cassie 55:06
If you're ready to transform your relationship and you'd like to see if you're a fit to work with us. Here's what I want you to do next, head over to atouchofflavor.com/talk and book an appointment to speak with our team will get on the phone with you for about an hour. And we'll get you crystal clear on three things. What's really not working in your relationships, what your dream relationships would look like and a step by step plan to close the gap and save your family. Even if nothing has worked before.

Josh 55:33
We talk with hundreds of non monogamous folks like you every year and here's the truth, building loving, thriving relationships that doesn't happen on its own. You need expert guidance to make that happen. And unfortunately, when you are building relationships outside the box, that's impossible to find and we get it. But that's exactly what we do. We've helped clients all over the world, save their families get the passion back and become best friends again.

Cassie 55:57
So, if you want to see if we can help you do the same head over to atouchofflavor.com/talk

Cassie 56:04
I'm Cassie

Cassie 56:05
And I'm Josh, let's talk soon.