how our polyamorous clients build thriving relationships

Your Metamour Isn’t The Problem

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If you’re in a polyamorous relationship, it’s easy to blame a lot of problems on your metamour.

Taking time away from you. Keeping you from getting the connection and intimacy you need. You might even worry that they’ll take your place or steal your partner away.

But here’s the truth: If your metamour is in control of your relationship then either you or your partner is doing something wrong. 

The power in your relationship doesn’t lie with another person. It lies with you and your partner. And when your relationship is solid no one can tear you apart.


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Josh 0:00
Alright, everybody. So today we're gonna be talking about metamours. And a lot of people come to us and they're like, my partner and I are having all these problems in our relationship that my metamour is causing. And here's the truth, if that's where you're at, that's completely not true, because your metamour has no control over the relationship between you and your partner. So if you feel like your metamour is in control of your relationship, either you or your partner are doing something wrong. So we're going to talk about how all that works. Stay tuned.

Cassie 0:49
Here at Touch of Flavor, we teach non monogamous folks how to overcome their obstacles and build thriving relationships.

Josh 0:56
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box, even if nothing has ever worked before. If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place,

Cassie 1:08
All of this information is 100% free. So please subscribe to and review our podcast.

Josh 1:18
Alright, so hello, hello, everybody. We're back. And we wanted to start trying to bring back the host chat. Behind the scenes here, a lot of you who are listening to the podcast may not know but sometime in maybe October, November, we started also publishing the Touch of Flavor show to YouTube. And with that, like with YouTube, YouTube's very different in that, you know, like if somebody is Googling, like getting started with polyamory or something, and they're coming to YouTube, they don't want to hear us go on for 10 minutes about our family first. And we've kind of gotten out of the habit of doing a host chat. But we know from a lot of you listeners that you really like that. And we want to bring it back. And what I think we're going to try and do is we're going to record the host chat separately. And then it'll obviously it'll be in the podcast, we're going to record the host chat a little separately from the video, or not so much recorded separately... but upload it separately to YouTube at least so you know, the podcast will have that normal format that people used to get of the host chat and then the show, and then on YouTube, we'll have the shows. But then we'll also have a little section of the host chats at least as long as people like if they don't like it on YouTube. We'll just keep it on the podcast, I guess we'll see. But with that Cassie, you want to talk about what's been going on in life, and why it's been a week? Why we missed a week of episodes?

Cassie 2:38
So, yes, we got COVID A little after the new year. And- ugh..

Josh 2:45
Which is so frustrating because we've been so careful. And it was gonna happen eventually. But like we've been so careful.

Cassie 2:52
Yeah, we mask up, we're vaccinated, we still social distance aside for like certain friends and things like that. So it's like, did all the things, still got COVID.

Josh 3:04
Omicron got us.

Cassie 3:06
In a rough way too, it was not- It's not been pleasant. And I feel so bad for the little lion. She, you know, obviously little person does not understand illness. And it definitely didn't go well with the whole tummy problems that she had with it. Like she was just like, no more poop. No more pooping. So yeah, it was a bit rough. But that's why we look a little drained and we missed a podcast.

Josh 3:38
We were like, I was like Cassie, You look pale, like what's going on? I can't get the camera settings right. And I'm like, Oh.

Cassie 3:44
I'm actually that pale.

Josh 3:45
Oh, nevermind.

Cassie 3:50
So, but we're back we're feeling much better than we were.

Josh 3:54
Yeah, so we got sick about, what our whole polycule I mean, we got sick maybe

Cassie 3:59
Two days after the New Year.

Josh 4:00
Two days after the new year, we don't actually know how we got sick. We got sick little lions bubble buddy got sick.

Cassie 4:07

Josh 4:09
But we all got sick like maybe two days after New Year and then Cassie you - you and Amanda got it first real bad and a little lion got it. And then mancub and I kind of got it... Last-ish.

Cassie 4:20
See. I think the little lion had at first. I think she just didn't have like the severe - more severe symptoms because she was kind of like- for like a couple of days before me and Amanda showed up. Kind of not eating good and like cranky and whatnot. But yeah.

Josh 4:38
It's not fun, even vaccinated. Not fun. But with that being said, so we're kind of on the upswing. We kind of, as of maybe a few days ago, I think. And so it was what maybe like almost two weeks but we're kind of back on the upswing now. But what I will say was really cool... So, you know, obviously with having COVID, Like, you know, we're sick we lost a lot of the normal support that we have you know, little lions grandfather, Cassie's, dad comes over and watches the little lion, you know, a couple days a week during work time. And, you know, we have some other help we bring in to help with little lion during work time and just some other things and we, we lost the support that we typically have. But what was really, I mean, cool was that with having the family like we were able to really - it was so much better than it would have been otherwise. Like the first couple days you and Amanda were really sick, I took quite a bit of time off work and like took the lion and played with her and stuff like that.

Cassie 6:09
And so did big bro, bro helped out.

Josh 6:11
Big bro helped out quite a bit.

Cassie 6:12
And then I started feeling better for a little while, it was kind of funny for me, because I felt better while Amanda was still sick. And then I was like handling the baby for like, two, three days. And then it hit me like, real bad for like three days. And then like that's when you started feeling sick too. So then Amanda kind of picked up so having the the polycule that we had, we got to kind of trade off who was like entertaining baby and taking more of the house responsibilities and things like that, through that whole process.

Josh 6:46
We still had support people to like drop groceries on the porch and stuff like that. So it has been interesting, I will say and you know, this is one thing I know we talked to people about but just you know, it's it's easy to have relationships that go pretty well when things are smooth in life. But it's when things are rough, that you really appreciate that support.

Cassie 7:15
And it's you know, we talk so much about building like healthy relationships and you want your relationships in good order for when life things happen, like this stuff happens like we are all maybe it's not Omicron, right but like all of us are going to get sick, all of us are going to have things in our lives that are going to go not as planned, not the way we like them. And having your relationships in a good, thriving place. gets you through that. Like it's it's amazing the difference when you and your partners and metamours are able to support each other in a positive way through life's difficulties, versus when there's already those you know, jealousy, and resentment or other arguments and disconnection going on. You can really face anything that life throws at you when your relationships are in a good place.

Josh 8:16
Now, here's the other portion of this Cassie, as far as getting better, though, so we haven't had sex in like two weeks now. How are you doing?

Cassie 8:23
Not great. I started having a lot of sex dreams. Like, seriously, like, I have been like having like so many sex dreams. I think I told you the other day I was like - I woke up and I was like, I must have had like through the night because I was still like waking up from fevers and stuff. But like through the through the night, I must have had like four sex dreams. And they were all like bonkers but really hot and amazing. So I'm I'm doing okay, I have not I have not lost my cool yet. So I'm doing pretty good with that.

Cassie 8:57
But yeah, the sexy time needs to come back. I was just thinking, I was like yesterday, I was not quite there yet. Today I am I'm I am over the hump of like, ugh, like so. Yeah, I am ready to get back to my normal friskiness because it's been... It's been a thing. Although I have to tell you there was like five days during the whole COVID thing where like...

Josh 9:25

Cassie 9:25
No, there was like not even thoughts of sexiness. I was like...

Josh 9:29
That's how you know Cassie's sick.

Cassie 9:30
Yeah, that's how you know I am sick is when it's like it's been five days and I'm like, sex what? Yeah, so um, yeah, but back to almost normal now.

Josh 9:42
Yeah. All right. So I think with that, anything else you wanna throw in? Little lion is doing amazing. I think we may bring Amanda on here. In a little bit. I was thinking we could start doing like an update from the polycule like maybe once a month. I know people really like those.

Cassie 9:56

Josh 9:56
And I know, you know, Amanda doesn't like getting on so much for the teaching episodes, but I was thinking we could just like maybe once a month just, we'd have to sort the-

Cassie 9:56

Josh 9:56
The setup out for YouTube, but just come in and do like an update from the polycule.

Cassie 10:08
I think that'd be awesome. I know Amanda loves when we just have her come on and do like more of a chatting stuff and talking about our family. And it's a lot of fun. So I would love that.

Josh 10:20
Yeah. Okay. So I think we'll do that. But we're going to start getting back to this. Like I said, we're going to put these back into the podcast episodes, we're going to see how these go on YouTube. As far as those chats, maybe people like them. Maybe they don't if they don't...

Cassie 10:33
Then it will just be for you.

Josh 10:34
Then it'll just be for the podcast listeners. Right. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, so. All right, everybody. With that, I think we're going to go ahead and wrap up the host chat and move on.

Josh 10:53
So today, we're gonna be talking about metamours, so much talk about metamours in non monogamy. And for those who don't know, Cassie, would you like to explain what a metamour is?

Cassie 11:05
Yeah. So a metamour, simply put is your partner's, other partner that you don't share. And I always like to specify that because folks are like, Well, what about partners we share? Well, that would be your partner too, not a metamour, right? So it is a partner that your partner has that. That's your partner's other partner, that's it.

Josh 11:25
Yeah, so Cassie has a partner who, who I'm not partners with, that's my metamour. Right? Now, obviously, metamours are a super hot topic. And you know, people talk about their metamours they want to get along with their metamours. But one thing that we hear a lot is when people are running into problems in their relationships, that they feel like are being caused by their metamours.

Cassie 11:25
Yeah, so folks will, you know, when we talk to folks, we hear them say things like, you know, my metamour is causing me and my partner not to get time together. My metamour is creating disconnection in the relationship that I have with my partner. They're disrespecting me and therefore causing problems in our polycule. So it's this, this idea that the metamour is creating the problems.

Josh 12:25
And there's also a lot of this place of, you know, well, my partner is not being cooperative with me, you know, and it's my metamours fault. If my metamour was just easier to get along with and they weren't pushing them, and they weren't this, and they weren't that, then my partner and I would be getting along better. My partner would be treating better, my partner would be more cooperative.

Josh 12:45
And our metamours kind of become like the boogeyman, right? They kind of become like the boogeyman, who get blamed for all of the problems that we have going on, keep in mind that we have going on in our relationship. So if I'm not getting the number of date nights I want, that's now my metamours fault. If, like I said, this other person is disrespecting me, that's their fault. If you know now, Cassie is going and you know, having this amazing connection with somebody else, And I'm not feeling like I'm getting my needs met. Well, that's my metamours fault. And for a lot of people, you know, some of these, and this is what's so interesting about this. You may be listening to this. And somebody may be like, Well, no, of course, is not my metamour. And then others hear these, and you might be like, Yeah, that's absolutely my metamour. Not everybody, you know, looks at all of these things and says, Oh, it's my metamours fault. But a lot of people look at some of these things. And think that they're the metamours fault. As I said, the metamour becomes the boogeyman, right? They become the one whose fault it is, that our relationship with our partner is not where we want it to be.

Cassie 14:01
Yeah, and there's a good reason why this happens. It's easier, right? It's really easy to blame it on that boogeyman, that you're talking about. The other person that I don't deal with, the person who isn't my partner, right? So we do do that. And we think that, you know, this, this person over there has control and has this, and has that, and we get to avoid some of the things that are going on in our relationship by doing that.

Josh 14:34
Yeah, it's easier, right? It's easier to blame our metamours. And there's a couple of reasons for that. The first is that when it's our metamour's fault, it isn't my fault, and I don't have to do anything about it. isn't about me. Right? And that's something we see sometimes what we see more often. And this is what's really interesting is if it's my Metamoris fault, I don't have to To blame you, right? So if Cassie has a metaphor, and you know, she's now spending a bunch of time with that person, and I'm not getting the time I need, of course, that's Kathy's decision where she's spending her time. But rather than be like, oh, you know, my partner doesn't care enough to spend the time with me or my partners and consider enough to spend the time with me. It's so much easier to go. It's my metaphors fault for being so needy and needing so much and demanding so much. And pressuring Cassie. And the thing with that is, it's pretty natural, because Cassie, and I have to get a long, right. So of course, it's easier for me if I'm pissed off and angry and hurt projected on somebody else who's not here, because it makes it easier for us to get along. But it doesn't help. Yeah. Where's there something want to throw in there?

Cassie 15:58
Um, I just wanted to when you're first thing you said, Cassie has a metaphor, even with Cassie has a partner and you haven't? Yeah, so Cassie is a partner.

Josh 16:05
Right. But it's really easy. And we do this kind of stuff all the time. And most of the time we do it without even realizing that we're doing it. But it's much easier, like I said to blame another person than ourselves. But even more so to blame another person than our partner. Because like I said, a Cassie is not spending time with me. Well, I've got to live with her. And I've got to deal with her. So if I'm upset with her, that's going to impact our relationship, if I can be upset at this outside person. Well, now we get along just fine. So people project. And I know you had mentioned when we were talking about this, Cassie also that there's a myth that like everything would just be better if Yeah,

Cassie 16:41
and the myth is, if if me and my Metamora just got along, if we were just buddies, if we were just friends, if they were just more friendly, everything would be okay. And here's the thing. I know for a lot of us who are non monogamous, we love this idea of having a poly keel or like that kitchen table poly situation and sitting down. But your metaphor not being your bestie isn't the problem, that isn't what's causing the friction in you and your partner's relationship?

Josh 17:19
Yeah, so And by the way, folks, I'm just gonna break for one second, if we're taking a second to call for whatever, we're our household, or Polly Hills recovering from COVID, if you didn't hear the hose shot, so there may be some coughing here, there, we wanted to get back in front of you, and talk about some things that needed to be talked about. So we make our metaphor, the boogeyman, we blame the problems in our relationship, on our men metaphors, and, again, it's easy to see why we do that. But when we do that, when we blame our Metamora for the problems that are going on between us. What problems does that thing cause? Where does that thing go? And there's a lot of them.

Cassie 18:03
The first is it creates a rivalry that didn't need to exist between you and your metaphor. And a lot of times when we're saying, Oh, it's my metaphor, it's their fault, then it creates this, this animosity between you and your memoir that really didn't need to be created in the first place. And that puts the shared partner, the hinge partner in a really poor situation. Because now they're hearing you talk about someone else that they care about, they're hearing negative things from you about somebody else they care about. And it puts them in a position where a lot of times, they have to choose, right, they have to choose to agree with you that this other person's a bad person or doing the wrong thing, or choose them and tell you they're not doing things.

Josh 18:54
Well, a lot of times that turns into an ultimatum, to write an ultimatum to break up with this person. Because here's the thing. If Cassie has another partner, right, and all this stuff's going on, and it isn't our fault, it isn't our fault that we're not spending time together isn't our fault, that we feel disconnected, it's this person over here and how awful they are, and how they're just the wrong person or whatever, well, then the solution to that's super obvious, you get rid of them. Right? The problem is, of course, that, you know, we're going to wind up either in the same problems without that person there or there's gonna be another person that we're gonna have the same problems, but that becomes a thing. And a lot of times when when a metaphor is getting blamed, it turns into an ultimatum and I want to throw one other thing out here, Cassie that I don't think we've talked about yet in this we're talking about this primarily from the standpoint of me looking at my metaphor and going there the problem, right if only we could get along or if only they weren't here or whatever. But I just want to add, a lot of times we also see this where the hidden partner does the same thing. It's just worded a little differently. Can

Cassie 20:04
I show? Yeah. Josh, I'm sorry, I can't spend time with you. Rebecca keeps saying that I have to come over. And if I don't go over there, you know, there's going to be problems. She's got so much going on. And you know, how that impacts me when I'm here with you? And I'm stressed out about Rebecca and not spending time with Rebecca.

Josh 20:26
or Yes. So that's, that's definitely like on the micro level, but on the macro level, it looks a lot like, Okay, well, you know, if you to just get along, everything would be fine. Right? Really, like there's no there. There aren't any real problems here at all. Actually, if you two would just get along with each other, everything would be cool. And this all falls under the same shared delusion. Right? This all falls under the same thing, though, about that, you know, that if the power somehow lies with this, the power relationship somehow lies with this other person. Right. So but you do wind up in a lot of situations with ultimatums that that's definitely one thing that happens. And by the way, if you are that person, who is your the hinge partner, and your answer to the problems, and the way you're explaining it partner is just Oh, it's this other person? Oh, it's this. So it's better if you to just get along. Understand that you're putting yourself in a position where the thing that makes sense for them to do is be like, Well, clearly, that's an awful person, I'm not going to be here if they are, right, you're

Cassie 21:33
you're feeding the boogeyman story,

Josh 21:35
you're feeding the boogeyman story, and you're putting yourself in a position where that ultimatum becomes something that makes sense for your partners to do. So, definitely don't do that. But here's the other thing, you know, beyond just creating rivalry, and leading ultimatums and all that you really given up your power, in your own relationships, in your agency, in your own relationships and your control over what your family and your relationship and your future. Looks like. Cassie and I have been together for lots of years. 1717 years? How often I'm talking to people in college, like how long have you guys been together like, are glad she's not here right now. 17 years, right cache, I've been together 17 years. If all the dreams that we have in the future that we built in the family we built and the life we built together depends on some other person coming in, there's something very wrong there. And this isn't just a couple's thing, right? That's just true. In general, the power for this relationship should never extend to somebody who's not in this relationship. When people are talking about hierarchy, and I don't like using that term, because it's a term that people use in a lot of different ways. Right? But really, at the root of it, when you look at hierarchy, what hierarchy what a lot of people mean when they use hierarchy in a negative sense, is somebody who's not in this relationship has power over this relationship. That's what that's what that looks like. And whether you like the word hierarchy or not, that isn't really the point. The point is, is that you should never be in a situation where the control over your relationship with somebody relies on somebody who you're not in relation to. You want to add anything there.

Cassie 23:53
I mean, what that means is that the partner, the shared partner needs to make sure they're managing that relationship. That's what that comes down to.

Josh 24:03
Well, yeah, I mean, and the two of you need to manage your own relationship, right. But I just want you to understand that when you're making your meme or the boogeyman, that may be convenient. And it may, in the moment, feel better between you two, right? In the moment, it may feel better to blame this third person and this is a really a avoiding a little bit of pain now for a lot more pain later problem. Because in the moment, we might get along a little better. If I don't come to him like hey, here's there's a problem between us and we need to fix it. We may get along, but if I'm like, Hey, there's this other person who's a problem, like in the short term that may happen, right? Because we don't need to even do anything or arguing. I don't need to be upset with you about it. It's not your fault. It's somebody else's. And in the short term, that's easier. But in the long term, you are Putting the control of your relationship, the course of your relationship, the course of the future between this dyad or this group or whatever, depending on what stuff looks like in the hands of somebody who's not a part of it, and you're losing your own agency, because if this isn't between you two, and it's about your metaphor, you have no control over that except to get rid of them. And so you completely lose your own agency in this relationship of building the kind of relationship that you want. Because the only agency you have is to leave, you can't fix anything, because it isn't about you. It's about somebody else. So you don't deal with or don't deal with them that way. That's a problem.

Cassie 25:50
Yeah, and when we, when we give up that power, when we get to a place where we're focused on this other person, this other thing, what happens is, we end up focusing a lot on drama, right? Like, the the friction that me and my Metamora have and like, oh, what conversations you're having with your partner in this than the other, and we spend a lot of time focused on the drama, and the things that are really not the problem. And we're not looking for actual solutions, right, we're spending the time creating new problems, and focusing on the behaviors of someone who's not in this relationship, versus actually looking at well, what's going on here, like, for example, we were talking about, like the declining thing, rather than us taking a look and really sitting down and having a discussion about my needs, and your schedule and how we're breaking that down. I'm focused on this other person, and what they're doing and what they're thinking and what they're feeling, right. So it ends up being a lot more of a focus on the needless confrontation, versus actually hammering down and figuring out solutions to problems that we as a dyad need to be tackling.

Josh 27:23
So but blaming your metaphor for your your problems, making them the boogeyman, whether you're the hinge, whether you're one of the vertexes. It feels good in the moment, but it isn't accurate. And it doesn't work. It's giving up your power and your agency in the relationship. So then what is like the truth around? And what do you do? And the real truth is this has, when there's problems in our relationship. It's never about the Metamora, your man or more isn't the problem. It's about you, and your partner. And we'll talk about the practical ins around this here in just a minute. But at the break, I want you to understand that just from the principle perspective, like the way you need to understand this and look at this, if you want to have thriving relationships is that if there's a challenge between us, it is never about your metaphor, when we're working with clients, and they have things in between them, we never let them blame that on their metaphor, because they're not going to get anywhere. There's nothing they can do at that point. Right? If you feel like your metaphor, is in control of your relationship, either you or your partner are doing something wrong.

Cassie 29:17
So where do you want to go from here?

Josh 29:20
I want to talk about how this actually plays out, practically, in a couple of ways where people typically think that their metaphor is the problem times an easy example. Let's start with time. Why don't we talk about time and how people think about that and what really is the thing that needs to be done?

Cassie 29:38
So what we see a lot is people blaming their Metamora because their men are more wants more time, or their Metamora is getting more time or I'm not feeling like my needs around time are being respected because of this person. Now, if you go back to what Josh just said, None of that's my metaphors fault. But I'm telling you that the place that people Start from right is because my metaphor is getting more time than me, my metaphor has lots of demands for time, I'm not getting the time that I want. And I don't feel like my needs around time are being respected. Because you're, you're more focused on giving my metaphor, the time that they're asking for. Okay? So that's how that plays out a lot. And what really needs to happen, there is a couple of things, and you can chime in whenever you want. But the first thing is, is that me, and you need to be able to sit down and have a conversation around my needs, that means that we actually have to be able to use good communication sit down and discuss my needs around time,

Josh 30:41
can we keep using you as the hinge partner in our examples? Cuz I feel like we've been doing it the whole time, and it's just gonna be okay. Okay,

Cassie 30:48
fair enough. So then we need to sit down and really talk about your needs for time, right? The time that you need, and what, you know, what good, good quality time is spending together, things like that, like, we need to have a conversation around, you know, your your time needs, and what that looks like, and start from that place of your needs versus what this other person is getting. Right?

Josh 31:16
And then

Cassie 31:18
and then we actually need to take a look at the schedule and see if that is something that is doable, if there's if there's a way to make that work.

Josh 31:29
But this is the most important piece of this. Whose responsibility is it to balance time in this situation? The scenario night, yours cuz I have this part, it's yours. You mean, it's your responsibility to balance what you're doing with your time and not this other person over here? Yep.

Cassie 31:47
Just like, it's your responsibility to telling me that you have problems with time and what you need? Hmm, it's not theirs?

Josh 31:53
Can I just blame them and not say anything to you? No, can't when you don't give that to me, I just blame it on this person and be like, Cassie has no agency and no control over her own time and what she does with it, and it's obviously this other person's fault for demanding more

Cassie 32:05
can't do that either. Hmm. Yeah, that means we're actually gonna have to figure something out.

Josh 32:10
And, and I agree with that, but also, and this is just when we're talking to people, right? Like, when you're the hinge, a lot of the responsibility for managing this stuff falls on you. That doesn't, which doesn't listen. And I'm not saying like, if I'm out here, and I'm at the vertex, that is any less, am I responsible for having these conversations for advocating for what I want to need for not blaming the other person for making it happen in our relationship, but the one who has to balance their time is Cassie, because she's the one who's dividing her time

Cassie 32:38
Can I can I put it in terms that I tell our clients, when you are in a v situation, the people on the outside of the V, it is up to you to present your needs your wants to handle your own internal emotions around it. And to bring that to the hinge partner, right? As the hip hinge partner, it is your job to hear those things. And then to sort it out and actually come up with the plan, the planning around making those things happen, right? So like, it's it's the people on the outsides job to bring their needs their wants their concerns, and it's the person who's in that, that hinge, right, to actually coordinate to make those things happen, that have been discussed.

Josh 33:27
So let's run through a couple other examples. Okay, so I as the hinge.

Cassie 33:34
Well, you said burden me as the hinge,

Josh 33:36
sorry, I'm out here as the Vert vertex is such a weird word, vertex, vertex, its vertex, right? There's a vertex edge.

Cassie 33:46
I always say the person on the

Josh 33:47
outside, yeah, I'm gonna do that too. As the person on the outside of the V is one of the legs of the V, there you go, right. I, you're having intimacy with this other partner, and I'm feeling jealous about the amount of intimacy that they're getting, because I don't feel like my needs are being met. Right. But also, like you're doing some things with this other person that you want. Don't do with me, and maybe even that I've asked for before, and now I'm feeling jealous. Now what?

Cassie 34:20
So again, there's gonna need to be

Josh 34:23
is it? Is it this? It's their fault?

Cassie 34:25
No, no, it's not their fault. That's as sexy as they are as an amazing partner as they are. It's still not their fault.

Josh 34:34
That they're taking that away from me, because they're getting it.

Cassie 34:38
No, no, they didn't take it. I just didn't give it to you.

Josh 34:42
And chances are, you probably weren't giving it to me before, either.

Cassie 34:47
And so what this comes down to is again, from a place of like, what your needs or your wants are, and tackling some of this, right, and here's here's the thing. Quite often, because you mentioned you're doing these things with this other person that you're not doing with me. Often we have things in our relationship from our past, from us having poor communication, us having arguments, maybe there's been some negative interactions around sex between the two of us. And now those things aren't happening. So we first need to have a conversation around our needs and our wants. But we also have to have a plan on how to correct and heal maybe some of the things that have happened, and have a plan for moving forward to getting to a place where our intimacy is back up to the place that we want it to be. Okay, but all of that was,

Josh 35:45
yeah. But at the end of the day if you want to have sex with this person more than me, or you have certain activities, and we do see this a lot with like, you know, especially people where there's overlap with like, the kink community, right, like you have activities that you want to do with this person that you don't want to do with me. That's totally their fault.

Cassie 36:09
No, that was that. It's not, they're fun.

Josh 36:17
But they're, they're asking you for it.

Cassie 36:19
Yeah. But I want to do it. Yeah. Because you know, I'm a person of my own agency and ability to make my own decisions.

Josh 36:28
Okay, two more of these. And we're kind of joking, but these are the things we see all the time. Now another a third one here. And I think this is actually I think this is the trickiest to separate out. Like, where the responsibility lies on this. I think this is one place people get stuck. You have another partner, and they're really disrespectful to me. Oh, yeah. So now what?

Cassie 36:50
Well, their behavior is definitely their problem, right? Because they're human, and they shouldn't be a jerk. But in impacting you, it's my problem. It's what I'm tolerating when I have my partner over, and I see that they're rolling their eyes at you and slamming cabinets when you're around or saying snarky, saying snarky shit, right, that's on me to handle. If I'm seeing either one of my partners, interacting with my other partner in a disrespectful manner, then I need to say something to that partner and say, Hey, that's not that's not acceptable, right. And here's the thing, this is where people get like a little like, they get this mess up, my partner doesn't my partner's partner doesn't have to like me, your Metamora does not have to be your best, he doesn't have to give you high fives when they're walking through the living room, right? Like, but there has to be a level of respect that as the hinge partner, you are not going to tolerate either one of your partner's doing. Right? Like saying disrespectful things, rolling eyes talking shit about each other. Like, that's a place where you have to manage that.

Josh 38:05
This is especially true by the way, when you're bringing somebody into a home that you share with another partner. This is something we see a lot. And this you know, it doesn't matter what the length of the relationship is, or anything. But if if we have a home that we share, right, and Cassie now wants to bring her other partner into that home, and assuming we have agreements around that, that's fine. But Cassie is now bringing that person into my home, into my space. And it's now Kathy's job to make sure that this person is respectful,

Cassie 38:47
isn't like going through your toiletries, and like squeezing out your toothpaste just to be a jerk. True story. isn't saying nasty things to you isn't disruptive, you know, as far as like intentionally disruptive when you're trying to work, things like that, like the person that you're bringing in needs to be treating the people in that dwelling with mutual respect.

Josh 39:15
And if they're refusing to be respectful, then as the hinge partner, it's your responsibility to either ditch them, or to manage things in such a way that they're not having to interact with your other

Cassie 39:35
partner. And it might not start at either one of those extremes. It might it might start with a conversation that's like, hey, yeah, 100 This is not this is not something that's going to happen here, right? Like, this is what needs to happen. Right? And you may start off with that conversation and making a very firm conversation and it doesn't mean the nuclear option of necessarily, as you said, getting rid of the partner. It might mean if you can't you know for me talking My partner, my invisible partner over here, right? It might be, well, you can't come to my house. Like you can't come over, or you can't be at my house when, when Josh is off, like when Josh is home, like, you know, we've tried this a couple times, and you're just not showing up in a friendly in a civil manner. Right? I'm not going to have you over at my house when you're going, I know you're going to have to interact with Josh. Right? So there's often many solutions to these things, but recognizing who needs to be the person who is the pusher for change the person who needs to actually be the solution finder, is the important thing, right? There's, it's not one size fits all in a lot of these situations. But it does come down to recognizing who is the person or persons who are responsible for driving the change and making and finding the solutions.

Josh 40:55
And then in that same scenario, right as one of the legs here, like, what's my responsibility? Well, a couple things. Number one, obviously communicating to Cassie that I'm feeling disrespected, and when I would need to feel respected. Right, number two, I can talk to the hinge part, this is a place that I can actually talk to the other leg, I can talk to my metamour about and say, Hey, I'm feeling disrespected. Here's why. And if you want to, that's fine. But it's also again, not my responsibility. Right? It's Cassius, like, if you want to do that, and you want to, you know, like that would make you feel like you're standing up for yourself, or that's just how you want to communicate, like, that's fine. But at the end of the day, managing that is Cassius responsibility, because from my side, again, I really can't do anything. So I've laid out an ultimatum and ultimatums don't really work. And we talked about that before, I'm not going to go into that in depth here. There is a third thing that I recommend, because I do see this happen quite a bit, is if I'm out here, and I'm feeling disrespected, you know, I do just want you to really evaluate if it is actually disrespect. A lot of times what happens is disrespect becomes another one of those places that's easier to hide in of being like this person disrespects me, instead of, I have hard feelings about them, maybe they have hard feelings about me, and we interact poorly. Or we're uncomfortable around each other, where it makes me feel uncomfortable. When they're here. It's easy to be like, Oh, that's disrespect. So I really want you to examine that for yourself.

Cassie 42:20
Yeah, and I'll just chime in and say, we often see this happen when there's Matt Morris who just don't really like each other, right? Where it's like, you're not my person, like I would not hang out with you, if it wasn't for our shared partner. And there ends up being this hard feelings, because you, you have this idea of what your relationship should look like, like you should be my friend, you should be like, we should be able to sit down and eat popcorn and watch movies together. And both hang on our mutual partner and it be fun and exciting. And that's not always the case. So recognizing what is actually active disrespect, versus not friendliness, or not what you pictured, you know, or what you had pictured as far as, like what you wanted your interactions to be or that, as you said that uncomfortableness there's a big difference there.

Josh 43:12
And just also is the hinge like a lot of times we see a desire or try to force the legs of the relationship to be friendly to have that kitchen table Polly situation. And you know, I understand this what a lot of people want. And you also have to understand that there's plenty of times that isn't going to happen, right, you're going to date people who are either too different from your existing partners, or to like your existing partners, or they just don't get along. Or you have partners who just don't want to interact that way through metaphors, which is totally fine, too. And that's fine. But you have to deal with that set of trying to force a relationship at that point, because then it will usually go downhill. Right? But you do need that basic level of respect

Cassie 43:55
that that force will cause more problems. That force does not fix the problems.

Josh 44:00
Last piece. Cassie, you have this other person in your life and that relationships awesome and amazing, and you're super happy there. And I'm looking at our relationship and what that looks like. And I'm feeling insecure and like this other person is going to tear us apart. Man even just the phrasing of that. But what now Cassie?

Cassie 44:31
Well, obviously it's their fault. No. Here's here's the thing,

Josh 44:36
guys one thing before you do, how wild is that? That we even talk even think about it in terms of this other person is going to tear us apart. But that's not about us. That's about them. How wild is that?

Cassie 44:55
When you put it like that, it's it's it? Yeah, That's That's some, that's a mad talk there. So, here's the thing. It's not about how good your partners other relationships are, it comes down to how good is the relationship you and your partner have? How solid is that relationship? How good is the foundation that you have? Because this other person, as we've discussed over and over again, doesn't have that much power. They don't have the ability to come in and tear your part of your, your relationship apart. And I'll even play the game and say, if they even had some power, how like frail is your relationship, that somebody else could come in and just

Josh 45:49
break it apart? Nobody can sue your partner, your partner has to choose to leave, that has nothing to do with their relation with this person, everything to do with your relationship. And look, it's really normal. Right? Again, it's really normal to be in a spot where, especially if it's something where we've been together a while maybe. And we have some bad history, we have some bad patterns, we build up our relationships kind of stale, that connection isn't there anymore, we don't communicate well, the intimacy has fallen off. And now all of a sudden, our partner has this other person in their life. And it seems like they have more in common. And our partner is more excited to spend time with them. And you know, maybe our sex life has been super lackluster, but their intimacy is through the roof. And they're trying all this crazy new stuff. And all this stuff. And it's so easy to look at that and go, Oh, my God, this person, they're gonna steal my partner away, they're a threat, you should immediately go to Oh, my God, how weak is our relationship? What does that say about what's here? If that's what I'm worried about, listen, it's a perfectly normal worry to have. But it isn't a sign of anything to do with this person. It's a sign of what's going on between you have where your communication is, of where your intimacy of where your connection is that like it's perfectly normal for a new relationship, to shine a magnifying glass on all the areas in your relationship that are lackluster or that suck, like that's a normal, that is completely normal to happen. But the answer isn't to go, Oh, my God, this person's going to steal my partner away? The answer is to look at that. And and look at that magnifying lesson. Look at all the things in your relationship that aren't where you want them to be No, go, Oh, my God. How can I get that? How can I fix this? How can I get to a point where we're communicating? Well, and I'm feeling heard here? How can I get to where we're connected, and like my partner enjoys coming home and enjoy spending time with me again, how to get the point where my partner wants to ravish me and how that intimacy with me like what needs to change here. What needs to change here that our relationship is good enough and solid enough and secure enough that you're my partner has this other person, these other people in their life, but I'm not afraid of anybody stealing them away from me, because what we have is awesome. So of course, because it is about sealing. Of course my partner wouldn't choose to leave me or choose to devalue our relationship. Because what we have is amazing. What about that? Little bit of a rant there?

Cassie 48:34
Go ahead. And and the great, amazing thing about this is that when you recognize it's about what do we need to do to do those things, right? When your relationship is in that place where it's thriving, and things are going well, then really, when there's this other person over there, and there's a hiccup like, not enough time, or a hiccup, like we need to change scheduling, then it's just a conversation about tweaking something on a calendar. It's all it is. When our relationship is solid, these little hiccups that come up because the more people we have in our lives, the more little things that we have to like deal with when our relationship is solid. It's literally just a small little blip on the radar. It's a small, tiny little conversation. That's a little tweak here and there. Yeah, and that's the real beautiful thing about it

Josh 49:25
100 percents, folks, here's the thing, and we're gonna wrap up here. But it isn't about your metaphor. It isn't about your metaphor. If like I said, if you feel like your metaphors in control of your relationship, you're doing something wrong. Your partner is doing something wrong. Your metaphor is not the problem. They're an easy bogeyman, they're an easy person to blame, whether I'm one of the legs or whether I'm the hinge is an easy thing to do. But it isn't accurate. It doesn't work. It creates rivalry and more importantly, it takes the power away in your relationship. If there's something that's going on here that I'm unhappy with, the thing to focus on is what needs To change here, it's what needs to be fixed between us. How do we get that passion? How do we get that intimacy? How do we get to a point where a partner wants to spend time this? How do we navigate these differences around time or navigate the schedules. But at the end of the day, the responsibility to do that it lies here, it doesn't lie with some third person. And when you grasp that, you can stop giving up your power and realize that you have the control over your own relations, you have the agency, in your own relationships, right? What we build together isn't based on anybody else, it's based on us. And if we want to have a thriving relationship, a loving relationship, where there's time, and there's intimacy, and there's connection, it isn't about booting somebody else out. It's about healing what we have. And if you want to do that, and you need some help, go ahead and book a call, right? This is exactly what we do. We help people navigate these challenges. We help people solve these problems in their non monogamous relationships, the things grow with their metaphors with balancing things. But more importantly, figuring out what is really going on between us. And what needs to change gets that loving, thriving relationship. So you can go to a touch, forward slash talk, that will take you to our calendar, right, you grab a time to talk with one of us. And as you go through, like we'll dive in on that call and get your crystal clear on what is not working in your relationship. Where do you have that control? What can you change to get that connection and that intimacy and that love that you want between you and to get that security that you know, nobody's stepping in between you? Right? So you can go there, you can grab a time and take it to a short little forum that we need to kind of prep, fill that out. And then one of us will get on with you at the time that you pick, it'll be the best hour you've ever spent on your relationships. Because again, this isn't about anybody else. This is about your relationship. And you being solid, whatever that diet is, or your group is and you being solid, and being in a place where nothing else can tear you apart. Anything else,

Cassie 51:51
Cassie? No, that's it. I

Josh 51:52
think that wraps us up for today. All right, everybody. Great talking to you. We'll see you next show. Hopefully, we'll be a little more a little more lively. And we'll talk to you then.

Josh 52:06
Thanks for tuning in to today's show. We release new episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe

Cassie 52:12
if you're ready to transform your relationship. And you'd like to see if you're a fit to work with us. Here's what I want you to do next, head over to a touch of forward slash talk and book an appointment to speak with our team. We'll get on the phone with you for about an hour. And we'll get you crystal clear on three things. What's really not working in your relationships, what your dream relationships would look like and a step by step plan to close the gap and save your family even if nothing has worked before

Josh 52:40
we talk with hundreds of non monogamous folks like you every year. And here's the truth, building loving, thriving relationships that doesn't happen on its own. You need expert guidance to make that happen. And unfortunately, when you were building relationships outside the box, that's impossible to find and we get it. But that's exactly what we do. We've helped clients all over the world, save their families, get the passion back and become best friends again. So

Cassie 53:04
if you want to see if we can help you do the same head over to a touch a forward slash talk. I'm Cassie

Josh 53:11
and I'm Josh. Let's talk soon