how our polyamorous clients build thriving relationships

Mono/Poly Relationships

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Can a relationship between a monogamous and polyamorous person work? Most people will tell you no. But those people are wrong. 

A third of our clients are in mono/poly relationships. Many of them had been together for years. They’ve built lives together. Families together. And they had no idea how to make this transition without losing everything they have.

Sound familiar?

Here’s how to navigate this barrier and build a thriving relationship.

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Josh 0:00
All right, folks. So today we are going to be talking about how to navigate a relationship where one of you is polyamorous and one of you is monogamous. So we're gonna jump into it. Stay tuned.

Cassie 0:32
Here attach a flavor we teach non monogamous folks how to overcome their obstacles and build thriving relationships.

Josh 0:38
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box? Even if nothing has ever worked before? If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place.

Cassie 0:51
All of this information is 100% free. So please subscribe to and review our podcast.

Josh 1:02
Alright, everybody, so we're really excited about today's topic we wanted to jump in. And we wanted to talk about poly mano relationships, relationships where one person is monogamous, one person is polyamorous. And we're excited to hop in about this. You know, we did an episode, well and we talk about this kind of here and there, obviously a good bit. But the last time we did I think a full episode on this was over 100 episodes ago. Is that right?

Cassie 1:27
Yes. Almost hard to believe it's been over 100 episodes. But yes, it has been around there. Yeah.

Josh 1:34
It's been almost 100 episodes. And you know, we were just thinking about this. And we really wanted to do an update, because you know, when we had put that first episode out, so it's really good. Lots of people have found it really helpful. But we had at the time, you know, really just kind of started seeing an influx of poly mono folks into, into our client base, into our programs and what we do, and since then, we have dealt with it a whole lot more. And we were just looking and realizing like, you know, there's so much more to say, than we had in that first episode. And we said it and it's spread out through our material between you know, then and now. But we want to just do an update centralized, put in one place, and talk about how you can do this, how you can navigate these kinds of relationships if you find yourself in one. Right.

And you know, the truth of the matter is the reason this is so important is there's a lot of people out there in this situation. And we'll talk about that in a bit. But the truth of the matter is, even though there's a ton of people out there, and in this situation, there are not many people talking about this or talking about it with any more than it doesn't work. Or talking about it from any place of experience whatsoever. Right.

And on our side of things. We deal with this more than anybody else does, you know, a third of our clients who come through who we work with, you'd say about a third.

Cassie 3:03
Yeah, no, definitely.

Josh 3:04
Yeah, about a third. I know we'd set a fourth and it was a fourth when we first talked about it.

Cassie 3:09
Yeah. But it's about a third now.

Josh 3:11
Yeah, so about a third of our clients are in this place of poly mano. So we've helped dozens of people through this at this point. And it's a topic that is, there's a lot of people there, there's not a lot of information, the information that is out there sucks and you know, it's really really a space that needs some help with some advice so we'd wanted to jump back into today do an update and lay out for you if you are in this kind of relationship. What does that mean? And what do you do? Okay, so Cassie, can you define poly mono relationships for people? Like what do we mean when we're saying poly mono?

Cassie 3:49
So it's anytime where you have a relationship where one person is polyamorous and and really people use this even just non monogamous, like you're not necessarily someone who's like, entwined with romantic relationships, but you are non monogamous. You are someone who has that need for multiple relationships of various kinds, and then another person who is monogamous and what that relationship is, a poly mono relationship, is where those two people are consenting for that relationship to be that way.

Josh 4:29
And so with poly mono, right? We see this a lot in situations where and again, we're going to talk about how people wind up here but couples who have been together a long time they wind up in the situation where one person's polyamorous, one person's monogamous. They don't know how to navigate it. And the other thing I'll throw in here, Cassie, while it isn't poly mano. I see a lot of the same problems in people where there's a big difference in the non monogamy. So just as an example, you know, you might have one person like well, I'm willing to like hook up with somebody time to time or have a threesome but I am not okay with my partner actually having romantic relationships with other people

Cassie 5:05
As one of our clients defined it, it was poly monogamish relationship.

Josh 5:11
Poly monogamish. So it's gonna be the same problems and if you're there, you can listen to this but for the sake of convenience and where a lot of people are going to talk about it in terms of poly mono for the rest of this, right. And I know Cassie, you like talking about just how looked down upon poly mono is and how bad the advice is.

Cassie 5:34
Yeah, um, first off, like it's, it's really it's kind of two parts right? There's the outside which, you know, the muggles will always say negative things about non monogamy and things like that. But in poly mano situations, it's even worse, right? It's like your partner's taking advantage of you, how could this happen? etc. But the bigger issue is how it's looked down upon within our own communities. In the non monogamous , polyamorous communities, poly mono is often looked down as like, Well you know, the one partner isn't woke or you're taking advantage of this person or etc, etc. But the biggest thing that folks say is it just can't work. It's unethical and a lot of the advice that's put out there is either a make your partner be poly, right, like make your partner be polyamorous or break up or you should be monogamous with your partner. It's almost like this like you can't do this thing. You can't do it halfsies. You got to figure out one or the other.

Josh 6:43
Yeah, well, and you know, it's it's, I don't want to say funny, funny isn't the right word. It's like sad funny, because the truth of the matter is, you know, when you look and like Cassie talked about, you know, you expect bad advice from the monogamous communities you get that whether both of you are non monogamous whether one of you is non monogamous whether you're thinking about non monogamy whether, whatever. Hell, you get it, you know, you get it all the time, like you get bad, you get bad advice. But as Cassie said, the thing is, you get so much bad advice in the non monogamous community as well. And don't get me wrong, you get bad advice in the non monogamous communities all the time as well, too. Like even if you are both poly, or all of your poly, or whatever it looks like, there's plenty of bad advice floating around out there. But what's unique about poly mono is there's a lot of stuff floating around that says this just doesn't work. Like just give up, just break up. Like your partner's unenlightened. Like Cassie said they're not woke, they don't get it. They're not evolved, you know, it's impossible, break up with them. And the thing about it that that just blows my mind is that people say this. But poly mono relationships are incredibly common. And this is one thing I think that we've really come to realize, since the first time we did this episode. And as we've talked to, you know, 1000s and 1000s of more people, one on one, as we've interacted with people, as we've had more clients, as we've been doing this longer, is just how much. How many people are in the situation. And, you know, I would hesitate to say, Cassie, we haven't talked about this, but do you think it's growing? I think it's kind of growing as the general knowledge and awareness of non monogamy is growing like, what's your take on that?

Cassie 8:33
Yes, I think that it's growing, because you have folks who are discovering that this is an option, after being monogamous for years and years and years, right. So it's becoming more known that non monogamy is an option. And then now there is a whole group of people who are recognizing this, while being in partnerships where their partner is- them and their partners have been monogamous. And there is that decision of how do we navigate this?

Josh 9:06
So and well. And that kind of leads into so why, like, why is this so common? And why do people wind up here and I think this is actually a really important thing for people to grasp, is why folks wind up here. Because this can be very confusing for people. It can be confusing for the monogamous person, it can be confusing for the polyamorous person, it can be confusing for, again, the community as a whole and everybody else around you. But you know these things really when you think about it, a lot of them are really obvious as to why people wind up in this situation. Right? And like I said, and usually this is an established relationship, like this is a relationship people have been in 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years and somebody is now like I'm polyamorous and I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't be monogamous. I can't not be who I am. So why do people wind up there? You wanna start laying some things out, Cassie, or do you want me to start?

Cassie 9:57
Um, I can start.

Josh 9:58
Okay.

Cassie 9:59
And just to kind to piggyback off of what I was starting to say, right? A lot of times, they discover this, after they've been in this relationship for a long time, this wasn't necessarily something that was, or and what I'm saying discovering it might not have even been that they didn't know. Or they didn't have a drawl. It is that they didn't know it was actually an option.

Josh 10:21
Well, that just really like takes people for an absolute loop. Right?

Cassie 10:25
Yeah. And that's the thing. It's this, oh, wait, this thing that I've had inside of me, or that I've been wondering about or that I've been thinking about for years, well, whoa, like, this is actually something I can do. And so that happens, but also with being in that relationship for so long, they start to realize that they've been unhappy, they've been unsatisfied, and they can't stay this way.

Josh 10:50
So and a couple things I want to spell out for that right. First off, which is when you talk about unhappy and unsatisfied. What you don't mean is I'm unhappy and unsatisfied here, so now I need to find somebody else. That never works well, we talk a little more about that later. Right. But you're saying I realized that I've been unsatisfied because I am non monogamous,

Cassie 11:07
That this is a part of me. And there is- I'm not fulfilling that part of me, not that this relationship sucks, I'm unhappy, and I need to find someone else. But there is something in me that's missing.

Josh 11:18
Well, and so and there's kind of two sides of that, right? There's the people who, you know, they discover, and maybe this isn't something that you've known for a long time, maybe this is something that you just discover, like one day, it's like, holy crap, this is me. Right? Like, this is who I am, this is what I need. I'm not gonna be happy without this. And then sometimes, maybe that you've, you're in the situation where, or it has been sitting in the background for a long time, right, where you felt like you're non monogamous. And you've been kind of thinking you've been kind of wondering and like, now people had a point where they're like, holy crap, like, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep going through not living who I am. And then you also the people Cassie, who, they know, they're non monogamous before going into the relationship, but they go into it anyways.

Cassie 12:07
Yes. And the problem here is that it's this idea of, well, we have a great relationship, I love my partner, I can do this, I can, I can put this aside, I can put this thing off. And just be happy here and do that. And this is like a lot of things in life, when we have something that is a part of who we are. Eventually, if we keep kind of pushing it aside, eventually, we recognize that we can't live without it. Right? Like if there's things that we, that is a part of who we are, you can only put that off for so long.

Josh 12:43
And it's people who really genuinely think they can stay monogamous, okay, I'm gonna go in this relationship. And yeah, like, I love this person. They- they're monogamous, like, cool, I can do this. And then at some point in time, and sometimes it's years and years down the road, they realize that they can't, right, they can't do it, they can't be happy. They can't be fulfilled in that and go through not being who they are. And then there's one more category here that I would throw in. And I don't see this nearly as much, but I also see people who I talk to, who I'm like, this has never been a monogamous relationship. And these are relationships where they're supposedly monogamous. But one person has never actually been monogamous in that relationship. And a lot of times both people know it. And it's been like there's been this like on again off again, cheating for years, and years, and years, and years and years. And so it's never been consensually monogamous. But it's also never actually been a monogamous relationship, either.

So those are kind of the main categories I see is people who they discovered after years of being together, they've always known they're non monogamous, but they thought they could or they knew before getting into the relationship, but they thought they could stay monogamous in this relationship, and they realize they can't, or like I said, occasionally, and I don't see it nearly as often. But it's people who this has never actually been monogamous. And it should be pretty clear to everybody by now that this has never been a monogamous relationship. Right? So those are kind of the-

Cassie 14:13
It's never been a consensually non monogamous relationship. It's been a non consensually non monogamous relationship.

Josh 14:21
Yeah. So with that, okay, so lots of people wind up here. And then you know, there's obviously a really harmful myth that gets thrown at people when you are in this situation. And again, it gets thrown at you no matter who's talking to you, whether it's from other non monogamous people, or whether it is people who are monogamous that this absolutely can't work and when do you hear people saying that Cassie, I know you have a lot of these conversations too.

Cassie 14:54
You know, a lot of times it goes like, well, two people from so different places can't make it work. You can't make, you know, to people who have very, very different morals or ideas. And it turns into this thing that you and your partner are just way too different to be together that you can't bridge that kind of big incompatibility.

Josh 15:16
And so I want to acknowledge where there is truth in that, right, which is left unresolved, this is absolutely an in compatibility. Like if this does not get resolved, yes, this is an incompatibility. And it's an incompatibility, by the way, like right now. Right. And I just want to take a moment here, so but but it's also bull, because these relationships can work and do work all the time. And we see it in our own clients, we see it in other people like this is a place a lot of non monogamous relationships start is in couples who have been together for a long period of time. So it's absolute bull, and it absolutely can work and it absolutely can be done beautifully. Right. But it is hard and I want to talk about some of the challenges that arise when you're in this situation. And first just talking about how difficult it is, like how difficult it is for both people who find themselves in this situation.

Cassie 16:22
In this situation of poly mono or in the situation of being told it can't work?

Josh 16:28
Well I mean, they're the same people. They find themselves in the situation of being poly mono.

Cassie 16:31
Yeah, so the challenges come in of not knowing how to bridge things, you know, it becomes a challenge because a lot of times that mono person because they are monogamous minded, feel inadequate, feel like they're not good enough, feel like they're not valued. And for the polyamorous person, a lot of times a lot of guilt comes in like why can't I just be monogamous. I love this person, I want to make this work, why can't I just be the the partner that they need me to be right, the the mono partner, they need me to be?

Josh 17:14
Well, and they're caught between that place of guilt and seeing their partner hurt and struggle. And at the other end of it. At the other end of it, the side of feeling like they aren't being who they really are, and of hurting and them hurting themselves. Right. And that's really difficult. And and also, I just want to take a moment to acknowledge because I think this is something that the non monogamous community does not do, which is ridiculous. I just want to take a moment to acknowledge how difficult this is for the monogamous person in a relationship because here's the thing. This is the position that if you're the monogamous person in this relationship you find yourself in, which is you have a relationship, you've gone into this relationship with, with agreements with a set of rules on how this is going to look and what this is going to be. And you've invested time, and energy, and money, and emotion. And now you are, you know, 5, 10 15, 20, 30 years down the road, however long, and your partner is changing the rules of the game. And you're finding yourself in a situation where through no fault of your own, I mean, really not of your partners either but but through no fault of your own, you're in a spot where your entire life, your entire relationship is all of a sudden getting turned on its head. Right? And I just I want to acknowledge like, if that is you, and you are there, I want you to know that that is a very difficult place to be. And it is absolutely okay to be struggling in that.

Cassie 18:48
Yeah, it is, it is not an easy place. And as you said, you know, there's all this investment that you put into it. And a big part of that is what you thought was going to be your future, like what your future looks like. And now, all of that is being questioned, all of that is shifting. And that is really, really scary.

Josh 19:11
So what do we see happen when people wind up in this? So you're in a situation, you've been in a relationship for many years, and now you discover that you're not monogamous. And when I say you discover your non monogamous, kind of the barrier that I use for this is, this isn't something that would just be nice. This is something that I need. Because if it's just something that would be nice, and it's going you have an established relationship, it's going to up end it, make your partner miserable. Throw your family's future into the balance, you know, obviously, it's just like, hey, it would be fun to go screw somebody. You probably leave that alone in this specific situation. If you have the conversation, and your partner's not okay with it. Right? But for a lot of people, this is not something that they can just put down. It's something that they want that they need, right. This is something that if they don't have it, they're going to feel unhappy. They're going to feel unfulfilled. They're going to feel like they're missing a piece of themself. That's really the difference here. It's almost like, and it's a bit of a crude comparison, but it's kind of the best of the best one I have. It's almost like an orientation. Right? It's like having somebody who discovers that they're, you know, they prefer women, and you're like... But couldn't you just have men though? Like, wouldn't that be like, just as good? Cassie, would not be just as good?

Cassie 20:22
No, no it wouldn't.

Josh 20:23
Are you sure?

Cassie 20:23
Yes, I am. 110%. Sure.

Josh 20:27
Right. And just listen. And again, it's it's an imperfect comparison. But if you think of it that way, you'll be on the right track, because it's somebody who feels like, sure they could. I mean, obviously-

Physically.

They physically could make the decision to just have one partner, but they're also going to be unhappy, they're going to be unfulfilled, they're going to feel like they're not being true to themselves, like something's missing. Right? So when people find themselves there, what happens? The first thing, and I'll let you talk about this, if you want to Cassie, but the first thing is the person who realizes that they're non monogamous is scared, and they just sit on it and don't bring it up.

Cassie 20:59
Mm hmm. They don't talk about it. And then what happens there is the polyamorous person, well, they start to get resentful. Because we're not talking about this, we're not making movements, you're just shutting down, I don't feel validated, because you're not actually listening to anything I'm saying. And a lot of resentment starts to build.

Josh 21:23
So so one thing that'll happen is is the polyamorous person, a lot of times, they just won't bring it up for a long, long, long time. And then maybe they will bring it up, they'll hint around about it, whatever. And then that conversational go really poorly. And then they sit down at some more, for for a long period of time, right. But there's, there's a couple situations that people tend to run into. One is they don't bring it up. And they just sit on it and stuff it. The second is, they bring it up, it goes poorly, then they sit on and stuff. The third is they bring it up, they talk to their partner. And they they wind up going in circles, they wind up arguing, and a lot of times it turns into this perpetual thing, either where like, we're arguing, we're making no progress, or, and I see this all the time, we're supposedly opening up, like, I've told my partner, hey, I want this, I need this, I'm not going to be happy and I'm going to be resentful. My partner agrees, in air quotes, that that's what's going to happen. But now we're six months, a year, two years, five years down the road, and we haven't actually been able to make any progress. Because we just, you know, we just keep going around and around and around in circles,

Cassie 22:26
We're still waiting to schedule that conversation.

Josh 22:29
Or just just to get stuff nailed down. Right?

Cassie 22:32
Just got to figure it all out first.

Josh 22:34
And the last piece that we see is sometimes people will open it up, and it goes really poorly. And then a lot of times, they'll shut it up, they'll shut down again, right? Or they'll you know, they'll they'll decide to stop. But this is the problem, this is what happens. I want you to really understand, because this is absolutely critical. At the end of the day, there's three camps. So you know that that's kind of the different paths that people take the sitting, the not talking, the talking in circles. But at the end of the day, there's three paths that it's really possible for the situation to take from here. Okay. The first is that this is something you want and need, you keep stuffing it down, you keep getting resentful. And, and we like to pretend that resentment is a dirty word, but really resentment, it just means I'm not getting what I want and need to be happy because of you. And it's not a dirty word. It's a perfectly natural thing. But as we sit there, and as we continue to not get what we want to need and feel like we're sacrificing and feel like we're missing out and feel like we're going through life not being ourselves and being inauthentic and not really living and not getting what we want and need. That resentment builds. And that resentment poisons everything that's good in our existing relationship, do you want to stack on that?

Cassie 23:53
I was gonna say the thing with resentment is, it becomes the dirty thing when you don't handle it. When you have that, like, recognition of I am unhappy, because there's this thing that I feel is standing in our way, if you don't address it, then it becomes the dirty thing. Because then you have that, that nasty, unhappy feeling towards your partner that's consistent and grows and festers. But if you acknowledge it, and you're like, Oh, I'm going to do something about this, and we're going to change this, then the resentment doesn't have to be, you know, this negative thing. It can be actually just a good piece of awareness for you.

Josh 24:34
So that's the one thing is you don't explore the non monogamy. You get resentful. It poisons the relationship, it leads to fights, it leads to arguing, it leads to disconnection, it leads to talking about breaking up, it leads to all these things. That's the first thing. The second thing that we see is people wind up cheating. And I want to say right off the bat here I'm not saying this to excuse cheating and breaking trust like we are dead set against it. It's an absolute no-no. Like, if you find yourself in a situation where your agreements are not working for you, it's your responsibility to change them before you do something else. But this is just the fact, that a lot of people, if they wind up in this situation long enough, they do wind up cheating. It's like, okay, look, this is what I want, this is what I need, I can't be happy. And if I'm just not going to get anywhere with my partner, it's going to hurt them so much to even have these conversations, it would just be easier to do it and not tell them. I don't, I don't know, if we really need to go into the damage that cheating causes do you.

Cassie 25:31
It's bad. It's awful. It destroys relationships. That's it. Don't do that.

Josh 25:37
Right. So that's, that's, that's one place that it goes. So and then the last place that it goes. So like I said, these are, these are kind of the places that things wind up if you don't resolve things. Resentment. Cheating. The other place is that people will agree, partners will agree like, you know, they'll see their partner upset, they'll see their partner hurting, they'll see the resentment growing, they'll see the damage that's doing, the risks that's coming from that. And they will agree to open up the relationship, even though they don't know how, even though there's no tools, even though they feel really bad about it and they don't know how to manage that. Even though they have no idea how to make it work.

And then this is when you wind up with like those non monogamy horror stories of things, right, where people are feeling super jealous. People feel like they're being replaced, you know, you're like going to bed crying, like you're arguing all the time, like your partner's going out to- like this is where all of that stuff comes in, is people open up without being prepared. And that leads to jealousy, it leads to insecurity, it leads to a bunch of hard feelings. And usually, in that jealousy, that insecurity, those hard feelings, the arguing and fighting and the disconnection that comes from that with your existing partner, you wind up pushing them away, and now they have a new partner for you to push them closer to. So it turns into this vicious cycle, where you don't know how to manage the feelings around opening up your relationship. So you're super jealous and insecure. So you're pushing your partner further away. Now you're pushing them further away, like almost into this other person's arms because they have this other partner who things are maybe going great with. And now you're feeling even more jealous and insecure.

Cassie 27:22
Yeah, and that just builds and builds and builds. And, and usually, there comes a breaking point in that where things have to stop. And it was the proof that this can't work. Right and ends up being this this. This situation where now we see it. And we're like, well, obviously, opening up can't work. And us being poly, you know, us being monogamous together isn't working. So what do we do? We got to break up.

Josh 27:51
Well, and this is the thing it really it's to two spots, right? It either winds up indirectly in the relationship, not working because of the jealousy, insecurity, the pushing away all the damage that causes Right. Or, like you said, what happens is it becomes the reason of, well, there's hard feelings, this can't work. Now there's an ultimatum. Now the relationships closed. And now we're back to that resentment building until something finally does explode. Right. You know, we had a couple of clients here. They did a testimonial for us a while back and a story in a video so I can use their names. But it was who were the people where he thought they were done with non monogamy for like two years. No, it was, um it's slipping my mind. Huh, I'm gonna have to look, I'm gonna have to look it up. But we had a couple of clients where and the names are, the faces aren't, the story isn't. But the names are slipping my mind at the moment.

But where, you know, they had gone into a situation where they had gone into the non monogamy. It had gone really, and you're probably getting confused, because there's so many of these, but they gone into the non monogamy. It had gone really poorly. Right? And he had thought they were done. And she didn't think they were done. Like two years later, she reconnected with somebody. That's what he found out like they weren't done. David and Brandy.

Cassie 29:13
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Josh 29:15
Right. So that's where it goes. And here's the thing, folks, I just want to throw it too, like, and you know, it's easy to look at this and go Well, there's hard feelings that come up like, well, of course, of course, it has a tendency to go poorly. Like, of course it isn't easy to make this work. Right. You're talking about turning the way you've done your relationship for God knows how many years, however long you've been together, but also quite likely, you know, especially for the monogamous person, the relationship, the way you have done relationships, your whole lives, right 30, 40 50, 60 years, all the role models you've ever had, all the programming you've ever had everything you've been shown about what good relationship looks like. All the skills that you've learned about how to have a monogamous relationship you're turning all of have that on its head. And of course, of course, that's difficult. But it doesn't mean stuff can't work. It can work. But those are the places that tends to go if it doesn't right. Resentment, like I said, that winds to poisoning things, the cheating, or people consenting to try it even when they know it's gonna go badly. And then no shit. It goes badly. Right? Those are the places that it goes if you don't address it, and you don't go about it the right way. So the myth, Cassie, is that it can't work. And it doesn't work and poly mono relationships are Doom Doom, Doom, Doom, doomed. Right? To quote Gir from Invader Zim. And for anybody who doesn't know where that-

Cassie 30:42
Doom doom.

Josh 30:42
I just feel like a nerd now. Okay, so. But with that, what's the truth, Cassie?

Cassie 30:50
That it can be bridged just like any other incompatibility. Any other challenge. This is something that can be worked on as a team and overcome.

Josh 31:00
Right. You know, we have people come to us all the time, and they're like, what situations does this work? What situations does this not work in? And, you know, our experience generally, is that unless there's some kind of huge overriding thing going on, and the only thing that really comes to mind for me, is religious beliefs. Right? Like if somebody has like, really strong moral objections to the non monogamy, that they are unable and unwilling, it's really more unwilling and unable to work through. Right. And that is, that belief is more important than making change. It's possible to navigate this kind of situation. And I gotta tell you, even with that we've had people come through, we've had, I know, a couple of like, Mormon couples come through, and we've worked with and that kind of thing. And, you know, even there, as long as it's even with the religious stuff as long as possible, or as long as people are willing to look at a shift, it's possible. But other than that, folks, like, like I said, other than there being some like, huge, weird overarching thing going on. These kinds of relationships can be navigated just like any anything else, just like all the other incompatibilities that you bridge in a relationship. I'm thinking of our clients a while back, you remember the ones who they graduated here recently? I'm not going to say names, because I don't I don't think they've given them, but with the kids who had been through the thing, the compatibility around the kids, do you remember that? Yeah. You tell people that story?

Cassie 32:30
Yeah. So he was polyamorous. And she's, you know, she's monogamous. And they have been talking about opening up the relationship. And they were like, you know, we've never done anything like this before. We've never bridged the gap like this. And then when we had the conversation, they had a huge, huge incompatibility. One, that's like one of the biggest incompatibilities that you can have, which is, do we have kids? Or do we not? One of them wanting children, the other did not. And they were able to work through that. Before this was before they were working with us, they were able to figure that out. And that is such a huge, huge and compatibility, like, you can't split a baby, right? Like, you can't do that.

Josh 33:18
Honestly. And what I told them, I said that, that to me is a bigger compatibility than this, right? Because like you said, you can't, you can't split the baby, you can't split the baby with kids, like you have kids, or you don't have kids, right? With this though, it's entirely possible for one person to be polyamorous and one person be monogamous. So it is not easy to bridge that. And I'm not going to pretend it is, like I said, you're talking about doing the way you've turned your relationship, probably all the skills, you have everything completely on its head. It is not an easy journey. But it can be done and it can be bridged. Just like other incompatibilities in your relationship. Because here's the truth of this. And this kind of a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around this. But this is a vital thing to understand. Because I think this is where a lot of that from the the non monogamous community is like this can't work comes from. If I'm monogamous, and my partner is non monogamous. The goal isn't- well the goal might be- but I don't have to get to a place where I'm happy with the fact that she's non monogamous. I don't have to get to a place where I am happy with her seeing other people. I don't have to get to a place that I'm happy with that. I know for a fact that we have clients who we have worked with for a couple of years, who still aren't happy that their partners are non monogamous,

Cassie 34:44
but what they are is they're okay with it. They're secure. They feel good in their relationship. And they've gotten to the place where they are happy in the relationship with their partner being happy and with their connections. and how their relationship is going. They're not happy that their partner is not monogamous. They're not jumping up and down and thrilled. But they are happy with the relationship. And they're fulfilled in the relationship that they have with their partner with their partner being able to be who they are, and them being able to be who they are.

Josh 35:19
Yeah, you don't have to be happy about it, you don't have to like it, I guarantee you that there are 100 things about your partner that you do not like and that you tolerate, for the sake of the relationship as a whole. And the love and connection that you get from it. The life that you build together all of that, I mean-

Cassie 35:39
I'm waiting.

Josh 35:40
No, nothing, or there is absolutely nothing there. Um, so how can I put this. Cassie is a little bit of a clean freak. Germaphobe. I'll just draw the line there.

Cassie 35:57
Yeah, I am not a germaphobe. I am cleanly and risk aware.

Josh 36:04
Mm hmm. Risk aware in ways that is incredibly irritating, especially if you want to, like be in the kitchen cooking with her.

Don't be in my kitchen. Just stay out of my kitchen.

Or something like that, right? Or having conversations about babies and things babies do? Because everybody knows babies and germs kind of go hand in hand like, but yeah, so-

Cassie 36:27
Or, or you know, what about you?

Josh 36:29
I mean, I'm sure you're going say something about peanut butter or something. I don't know, you say that all the time.

Cassie 36:33
I always talk about the peanut butter. I mean, also, like, you know, you're like, super. Like Okay, you've acknowledged that you have like some ADHD stuff on the podcast.

Josh 36:45
Some.

Cassie 36:45
So I'm not like outting you.

Josh 36:48
Just a bit.

Cassie 36:48
Yeah, like, you know, it's not easy having a partner who, like you're trying to have a conversation about this thing. And they've had like eight other conversations in the middle of it. Because like, you know, that might be a thing.

Josh 37:02
Yeah. So we all have things about our partners that we don't, we're not happy about, that we would like to change. But we find a path, we find a path forward into figuring out how to bridge that. And yet for some reason, when it comes to our to romantic relationships, we treat it like that's different. And if you're there, I'd have you ask yourself why. I mean, just because people have told you that it is like legitimately, why? It doesn't have to be any different. You can bridge just the same.

Cassie 37:35
Yeah, and when you're saying like, that we would like to change is more of like, if we could, we would, if we could like snap our fingers and that would not change who our partner was or negatively impact them, etc, etc, we would. But this is the same thing. When you're in this situation where one of you is poly and the one is monogamous. You get to a place of recognizing that this is a part of who they are. And you can either accept that and learn to be okay. And in agreement around it. Or you can lose somebody because of that one thing that would be nice if it was gone.

Josh 38:17
I know that people are like, but it's so different. Like we talked about my partner going out and like being with someone and spending time with someone else. And I know you have an example here that you you like to give. Do you just wanna lay that out for folks about like, the hobbies, the gym like that kind of thing?

Cassie 38:30
Yeah, I mean, the truth is, is that I mean, I used to call the gym your other mistress for a while.

Josh 38:38
No, I used to call my work my other mistress.

Yeah. Well, that's true, too. It was never the gym. It was my work.

Cassie 38:42
Well, it was that period of time where you decided to do the boxing thing.

Josh 38:50
On a complete side note. It's probably a good idea to consult your partner before you decide to sign up for a cage fight in six months. And now you have to do like a crazy training regimen. Go ahead.

Cassie 39:02
Every day, every day, training regimen. Um, yes. So, but anyway.

Josh 39:09
Except for that.

Cassie 39:10
Yeah. So but it's this thing.

Josh 39:13
That's actually a really good example, though.

Cassie 39:16
Do tell. How was that a good example?

Josh 39:17
Well, no, I mean, yeah, I mean, it was, it was something you were pretty unhappy about.

Cassie 39:21
There was something I was very unhappy about. Um, I would say this would be the way not to do poly/mono. So I'm gonna - give me a second to twist this around. Okay, so here's the thing, right? Josh goes to the gym all the time, while pre COVID. Right now you actually built a gym, you know, with COVID and everything in the house. But Josh is going to the gym constantly, and like it's really important to him and it makes him fulfilled and it makes him happy. And honestly, I'm not a gym person. And it took time away from me and him spending time together. Like that took time out of our time being able to spend together. Especially when you were working a job where you didn't have a lot of free time. There was a little bit of time that he had that was free time. And I was sharing it with the gym. Right?

Josh 40:10
You make it sound like I spend way more time at the gym than I do.

Cassie 40:15
You went to the gym several times a week. And, and the travel and all of that. It was like, because we and we also live in the middle of nowhere. So there's travel. So it was not an insignificant portion of your Awake, awake, free time that you had.

Josh 40:31
Awake free time. Yes, I'll agree with that.

Cassie 40:32
Yes.

Josh 40:32
There you go, that's fair.

Cassie 40:33
A significant portion of your awake free time. And so yes, that took time away from us being able to hang out, right. And for those of you who are like, Oh, you could go to the gym, I could, we're not going to get into that that's gonna derail this whole conversation of why I would not go to Josh's like jujitsu gym. So anyway. But the point being, is that at the end of the day, it's something that was healthy for Josh, it was something that he needed to be a healthy, thriving person. Exercise you- I know you- I know that that is something that you need. And I, regardless of liking that, or not liking that, because there's plenty of times I didn't like it, like, Hey, you only had a couple of hours to be home this weekend. And I know you're spending a couple of it doing this other thing. It doesn't feel great. It's not wonderful. But being able to move past that and recognize that our partners have things that they need and want that may impact us. Right. But it's about trying to make the time that we do have, you know, full of quality and our relationship sound. Now going into the boxing thing. And all the time. The whole point that I'm going to bring this around to is that you can do those things, and you can make those things work. But you want to make sure that you're actually talking to your partner, and taking the steps and having the understandings before just hopping in and doing things and blowing it up.

Josh 42:04
Yeah. So with that, and you were incredibly supportive in that, and I appreciate that, regardless. So with that, though, here's what I want you to take away. So like I said, the myth here, the thing that people will tell you, and this is the thing and listen, I want you to understand. And we keep going back to this myth that's out there that this cannot work. If you accept that, that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. either because you're like, well, this relationship can't work. I can't be happy and healthy. So I leave. Or it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because you're like, Well, it can't work. So I'm just gonna stop this down. You do that until you have ruined everything that used to be good in your relationship.

And listen, and I'm not trying to be dramatic here. I'm magnifying a little bit, but not much. Right? It really is if over a period of time, that resentment, that feeling unfulfilled that feeling like your partner is keeping you from living your life, from being who you are, it builds and it builds and builds into a cycle and we see it over and over and over again. Right, it's just how long that process takes. So when you buy that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. What you need to understand is it absolutely can work, we see it work all the time, you can look at other areas of life and see places that you can bridge and do bridge things with your partner that would otherwise be incompatible. So it is entirely possible to wind up in a situation you have a poly mono relationship the polyamorous person is able to be themselves. Right, but then a monogamous person still getting what they want and need. And you still have a thriving, secure relationship with each other.

It isn't easy, but it is possible. And the first step of that is making the decision. And I want to talk about this. Because when you're in a place where you are in a relationship, and you discover that one of you is polyamorous and the other person is monogamous, you have exactly three options. Okay, there are only three. The first is what we just talked about. I mean, it's you sit in that, you stuff that down, or you maybe you don't steff it down internally, but you sit in the conversations forever, you never actually explore that piece of yourself, and you keep getting more and more resentful until something in the relationship blows up. To me that is really the only wrong answer out of these three is to kick the can down the road until things get much worse and now you've done a lot more damage than needed to happen. Right? So you can do that. You can stuff it down. That's option one.

Option two, is you can break up and that is a legitimate option. It is healthier than kicking the can down the road until things get really bad and then breaking up. But also, I gotta assume that for most people, that's not what you want, you don't want to lose your partner, lose your future, lose your family. If you're married, go through a divorce. You know, put your kids in a broken home, when you don't want to do that. Right.

The only other option that exists is you commit to doing whatever it takes to heal. Well heal isn't the right word, to navigate this to bridge, this in compatibility, and to find a path forward. Where you are able, where the non monogamous person is able to be themselves, but you are both able to get what you need from this relationship, and to thrive. And to do that before giving up to say, Hey, listen, even if you even if you have a hard time believing that it's possible, and seeing a path to go, you know what, I don't want to sit on this and watch things go down the tubes, I don't want to break up. So what I'm committed to doing or we're committed to doing, depending on the situation is to figuring out doing everything we can to make this work to finding a path where we do bridge that gap, and where we are both happy and healthy. And we have this cloud over our heads. And everybody's being themselves. But we are secure. And we're in love, and we're getting what we want. And we need from this relationship. So anything that you want to add to that?

Cassie 46:29
No, I think it's those are the options. That's what you you, you can choose to do.

Josh 46:35
And here's the other piece that I want to throw into this. And this is something else I don't think we talked about the first time. And this has to do with who is looking to make that change. And this is the hard truth of this. Sometimes, if you are the non monogamous person, your partner will not be willing to take that third option with you, your partner will not be willing to do the work with you to try and see what can be done here to make this work before giving up. And the reason for that is really simple. They don't want you to be non monogamous, right? There's lots of situations where people you know, you have a partner, and you know, you feel like you're not monogamous. And that's what you want. And that's what you need. And you know, depending on who they are and how they were raised, they simply don't see that as a valid need. And their answer to it isn't to try and find a path forward into that. Right? Their answer to that is Stop it. Stop being who you are, stop needing that that's wrong, it's wrong of you to want that thing, it's wrong of you to need that thing, I'm not going to humor that I'm not going to give that space, stop it. And by default, they're kind of stuck in that option one that's sitting on things until it gets worse and worse, because they don't see it that way. Right what they see it as is this is staying the way that it should be you don't have anything to get resentful about. You don't have anything to be unfulfilled about this is exactly what people need and what you should need. And things aren't getting any worse.

And if you are in that place where that is where your partner is at, it's important to realize that again, you still have those three options, you have those exact same three, to break up, to sit in that and watch things get worse. or Now in this case, to by yourself decide to step up and advocate for yourself, and what you need and who you are. And to do that with compassion and love and to try and find a path forward to bridge that where it can still work. But the mistake we see a lot of people make is that if their partner isn't in a place where they're willing to do the work, the monogamous person isn't in a place where they're willing to do the work. They sit on it. We don't see this with the monogamous person, the monogamous person, if their partner doesn't want to do the work, they're like, I know they're poly. I know I need to sort through my emotions figure out how to do this.

Cassie 48:49
And I was going to say, and it's funny because a lot of times you know, I'm going to give a little props for the monogamous folks in the room, right? A lot of times, the polyamorous community doesn't know that there's a lot of monogamous folks out there that are like, I don't see something bad or evil about my partner doing this, I just I can't get through this. And I know I need to fix it. So a lot of times they're they're even more motivated than the polyamorous person.

Josh 49:13
Sometimes they come to us themselves without their partners.

Cassie 49:15
Yup. We've had quite a few clients who have come who are the monogamous partner, and they're like, I want to work on this, and and build, you know, my my faith in my relationship, my ability to deal with my emotions, because I know that like my partner is a good person and needs this thing. And I need to grow so that way we can make this work.

Josh 49:38
Yeah. And so just if you're there understand that if your partner is in that place where they don't see this as a valid one a need for you, you still have these three choices, you still can break up, you still can sit on it and watch it get worse or you can choose to work on it and this case you're choosing on your own to work on it and to say I'm going to advocate for what I want for what I need. Do everything and to give this a chance to actually work and for us to actually get to a place where this relationship between us can work. And we have plenty of people come to us in that space. Right where they're the monogamous person. And look, we have all three ends of the spectrum, we have couples come, we have a lot of that we have sometimes the monogamous person comes, sometimes we have the polyamorous person come. But it's just important to realize that if you are polyamorous and you are letting your partner choose that first option for you, you are choosing to watch things get worse.

And here's what I want you to understand when I say that there are only three options, I want you to understand that if you are in this situation, you are always choosing one of those three. And what I mean by that is not doing anything is choosing option one, not doing anything, not working on this, not trying to sort through this. That is that choosing to sit and watch yourself get more resentful, and watch things get worse and worse and worse. And as I said, that's the only option that really shouldn't be one. What would you also say, Cassie to the people who are like, because the other side of that, again, is the guilt. And the people who are like, I should just get over this in myself. So I'm just going to eat this. Like, I'm just going to deal with this, I'm just going to deal with being unhappy unfulfilled, because I should just get over this because this, you know, this is wrong of me to want. Or it's wrong for me to put my partner through this when I you know, especially if I promised them a monogamous relationship. Like, what would you say to those people?

Cassie 51:31
So the first thing to just really put in context is, you know, how long have you been like this? If you've been suffering, and this isn't something that you've been able to let go of, if you're having these feelings, most likely, they're not just going to go away. Right? Like if they were, if it was just like something that popped into your head, oh, you know, that'd be cool. Like it would have gone away by now. And recognizing that, us as healthy humans, if we have something that we need, right? Eventually, there's going to be a breaking point. And the other thing is, is you are putting your partner through this, when you are resentful, when you are not being fully who you are, you do not show up in your relationships, as your best self, and your relationship is going to suffer because of that. The connection is going to be less, the trust is going to be less, the overall happiness in your relationship is going to be less. Because when we are not truly who we are, we do not show up in our relationships in a way that makes our relationships thriving. It's just not possible. So really, what you're doing is you're saying, Well, you know, I should not do this to my partner. Well, you shouldn't do that to your partner, either. You shouldn't put your partner through a subpar relationship, because you can't face this. And come at this from a place of we have to figure this out.

Josh 53:04
And the other thing I'd say to you is like there's nothing wrong with you. Like there's nothing wrong with you if you're non monogamous. And I know that can go against so much programming, and maybe so much of how you've been raised maybe even what your partner is saying to you. Right? But there's nothing wrong with you. There's also nothing wrong with you if you want to be the monogamous one, by the way, right? So there's nothing wrong with you. And but it's important understand that at the end of the day, like I get it and I get and it's normal. Like if you're in a situation where you're changing the rules on your partner, and you're watching them hurt, and you're watching them suffer. And you're watching the toll that's taking on your relationship. It's normal to want to be like, hey, like, you know, maybe maybe just I won't. Like maybe I will just stuff this down. Maybe I will, you know, maybe my partner's right. And this is something I just I shouldn't want I shouldn't need.

But you have to realize, and I said this before, resentment is a perfectly normal, natural, like it's unavoidable. If you are in a spot where you feel like this is something and again, not like oh, this would be cool and fun. But like, This is who I am. This is what I need. I feel like I'm missing out, I feel like I'm being inauthentic. I feel like I'm not being myself. I'm feel like I can't be happy and fulfilled. Unless I explore this. You will get resentful. That will damage your relationship. So while I understand the desire to be like, I wish, maybe I even wish I could go back to wanting to be monogamous. Like I wish I could go back to this being simple and not having these problems in my relationship. The longer you ignore the truth of the matter, the more problems that you're causing, and the harder it's going to be to wind up in a spot where you come out the other side of this with a happy and healthy relationship with your partner. So here's the thing that I want you to realize there is a lot of hope here. And I know like I said, I know that all the time, you know, there's all this bullcrap floating around, we see this work every single day. Right? It is 100% possible to be in a situation where you're yourself, and your partner is themselves, but you're both getting what you want, you're both getting what you need, you're happy, you're fulfilled, you have all the amazing things that you had before this came up.

Cassie 55:24
And sometimes even more, I mean, we have clients who after this point, you know, I think of Chris and Lelly, right, we have a testimonial of them, their relationship, after the point of being able to navigate poly mono has been even more fulfilling, they are happier, they're excited. They're, they're going on adventures, because this this obstacle that has been plaguing their relationship for so long, isn't there. So not only can you have the awesome things in your relationship, you can remove this weight that has been causing so much to be, you know, heavy and difficult for so long,

Josh 56:00
Well and when your partner is in a spot where they able to show up happy and fulfilled and who they really are, as themselves, they have more to give. Right? What's up?

Cassie 56:10
Oh, I was gonna say, and when you're not in a place where you're in circular conversations and arguing about things and ripping your hair out, you've removed those things out of that whole equation, right, all of the stresses. And for a lot of folks that we talk to who were in the situation where they're, they've been trying to figure this out. This has been something that has been causing a lot of stress in their relationship, but once you know how to navigate that, it leaves so much more room for all the good stuff.

Josh 56:39
Yeah. So here's the thing. There's hope. But you know, it takes a couple things, right. Number one, it takes realizing like I said that it is possible. Number two, it really takes sitting down and making that decision, like making that decision, that we're not gonna let this fester, we're not gonna let this get worse. We're not gonna let the resentment build, we're going to do something about this. And we're going to make this work. And that right, there is the point that most people don't do most people sit in that. And like I said, stuff down and let what happens happen. And what happens is usually the relationship falling apart. Right?

So making that just that defiant commitment, that decision that we are going to make this relationship work is absolutely vital. And from that place, now it's figuring out how to make it work. And I want to spend just a second and talk about this. Because the truth is, this is incredibly difficult to make work. Not because there's anything wrong with you not because there's anything wrong with poly mono, it's just hard. Because what you're talking about, like I said, is turning the way you've done your relationship for years, usually the way at least one of you has done your relationships, their whole life, all of your programming, all of everything on top of its head. You're talking about a whole bunch of skills that you don't have, you're talking about a whole bunch of landmines that you don't know what to expect. Right? And, you know, it isn't just about making the decision that yes, we're doing this because so often again, yes, we're doing this turns into oh my god, like there's jealousy and insecurity and now stuffs, you know, arguing and falling apart, you know, two, three months into the non monogamy side of things, right.

You have to actually learn how to do it. And I would encourage any of you who are here, what I would say is that what needs to happen here is simple. What needs to happen here is need to realize it's possible, you need to make a decision not to sit on the problems, and to move through and to actually find a path forward. It's very simple in that way. But the actual finding the path forward, especially when this is something that you've never done before, where you've been running your relation, monogamous, you have all this built up stuff in the past of how you used to do things of maybe the baggage you already have of all of these things. That is very difficult. And the first obstacle is overcoming making that decision. But the second obstacle where we see people fall is that that is incredibly difficult to navigate on your own being like, Hey, we've been in this relationship 15 years, and now all of a sudden we're opening it up. It's incredibly difficult. Most people do not come out the other side of that, that transition, without help, without support, without knowing how, without knowing what they need to change, what conversations to have, how to have them how to navigate the feelings, how to make agreements, where people are able to get their needs met, and to actually navigate into this new reality. So if that's the place you're finding, and you're making that decision to make this work, then you actually need to take the actions to make it work. And that means getting help. That means getting help to navigate this from people who have helped other folks navigate this many, many, many times before.

Cassie 59:49
And this very specific thing, not just making a relationship work, but this specific thing because this is a very unique dynamic in regards to, you know, your relationships and the structure and making sure everyone is taken care of. So I just needed to add that specifically, someone who knows how to navigate poly mono.

Josh 1:00:12
Yeah, because it takes information like obviously the steps and the step by step that you need to do to open this. But it also takes support, it takes support, to help create new agreements to mediate in those things in this new future, it takes support to help navigating the feelings and now coming up after opening our relationship up after how many years and the jealousy and insecurity is hitting, right. This is not an easy thing. So you know, you made that decision like that is awesome. And it's amazing. But to actually make this work, get help, like seek support from someone who has helped other folks through this exact challenge of opening up an established relationship of helping and not just even opening up an established relationship, but poly mono, which is an even tighter subset of that, right, where both of you don't want to open this up, it's only one of you. Like find somebody was helped lots of other people navigate that successfully, and do what it takes to work with them. And to get the help to make this work.

Because this is, again, this can be beautiful, this can be amazing, it is absolutely possible to find a future where you just aren't back to what you used to have before this became a problem but to better than ever. But most people will not make that happen on their own. If you would like our help with that, because obviously we do this all the time. And I feel entirely confident saying that we help more people through this than anybody else that I've ever heard of. Right. Like I said, this is a third of our clients, we deal with this all day, every day, there's always multiple people in our course, we're going through this right that we're working with. If you want help with that, go to atouchofflavor.com/talk that'll take you to our calendar, grab up a spot, we can talk about what is going on, you know, grab a time up on there, we'll hop on with you. And it will be the best time you've ever spent navigating through this and figuring out how to make that relationship work.

And again, I will say this one more time, if you are the polyamorous person, and you're in a spot where your partner would rather shelve this and is unwilling to work on it, and wants to take that route of just letting this sit and fester and you get more resentful and things get worse, book that call yourself. Like we'd love to have you both here. But I'd rather have one person here, then neither of you show up or one of is dragging the other one kicking and screaming. Right it is you can navigate this, you can do it on your own. But you still have to be willing to take that step. And to be like I will not sit in this resentment and this hurt and the suffering any longer. And I'm going to do what it takes to turn things around here while there is still time. And to build that beautiful, beautiful life. And it can be so beautiful. Like our clients, like I said, the people that we have helped through this before, are in a spot where like they are absolutely thriving because they're able to be themselves but to have each other and have that love and that connection and to get their needs met and have that security and really get to a place where like I said, like we were talking about earlier, it just becomes one of those things that some people are thrilled with it. And some people, it never gets there. And some people it's like, you know what I mean, still, like I'd prefer this not to be but it's here. And guess what, we have a great relationship anyways. And that's what needs to happen. Anything else you wanna throw in Cassie?

Cassie 1:03:22
No, I think that that sums it up that, you know, we're at a place where I'm okay. You know, the monogamous person is okay. And because our relationship is so amazing, we're great. We're great. And I'm okay with you being you. And if you want to get to that place, definitely book a call with us.

Josh 1:03:40
Yeah, like I said, atouchofflavor.com/talk, grab a time on the calendar, there's little application after that, fill it out, it has some information we need. And we'll hop on with you. And we'll talk. And we'll figure out a path forward and how to bridge this gap and how to make that work. All right, we will see you all here next time. And until then, have a great week.

Thanks for tuning into today's show, we release new episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe.

Cassie 1:04:10
If you're ready to transform your relationship and you'd like to see if you're a fit to work with us. Here's what I want you to do next, head over to atouchofflavor.com/talk and book an appointment to speak with our team. We'll get on the phone with you for about an hour and we'll get you crystal clear on three things. What's really not working in your relationships, what your dream relationships would look like and a step by step plan to close the gap and save your family even if nothing has worked before.

Josh 1:04:38
We talk with hundreds of non monogamous folks like you every year and here's the truth building loving, thriving relationships that doesn't happen on its own. You need expert guidance to make that happen. And unfortunately, when you were building relationships outside the box that's impossible to find and we get it but that's exactly what we do. We've helped clients all over the world save their families get the passion back I'd become fast friends again.

Cassie 1:05:02
So if you want to see if we can help you do the same head over to atouchofflavor.com/talk. I'm Cassie.

Josh 1:05:10
And I'm Josh. Let's talk soon.