how our polyamorous clients build thriving relationships

Equality in Polyamory

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Equality is good, right?

In most things, yes. In polyamory, not so much.

Because when most polyamorous people talk about equality, they’re really talking about sameness.

And trying to make your relationships the same just doesn’t work.

Here’s why asking if your relationships are equal is the wrong question, and what you should be asking instead.

Resources mentioned


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Josh 0:01
Alright, everybody. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking about this idea of equality in non monogamy. And I guess kind of what people think that should look like and the myths around that and what you should really be doing instead. So stay tuned.

Cassie 0:38
Here at Touch of flavor, we teach non monogamous folks how to overcome their obstacles and build thriving relationships.

Josh 0:44
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box? Even if nothing has ever worked before? If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place.

Cassie 0:57
All of this information is 100% free. So please subscribe to and review our podcast.

Josh 1:07
Alright, folks, so we're shooting with yet another setup today.

Cassie 1:13
Maybe fourth time's a charm, because this is like the fourth different setup that we've done.

Josh 1:17
Yeah, so we had a little while back, you know, we've been testing kind of trying to talk face to face, which we like, like the energy is better. We've had a couple comments from like our audience on that. And it is definitely easier to have a conversation like we're face to face when we're face to face instead of sitting next to each other.

Cassie 1:35
And it was what we did when we podcasted originally, right?

Josh 1:40
Before the video, yeah.

Cassie 1:40
Before the video is we would sit across and it was a little bit easier flow of conversation than trying to look at each other while sitting next to each other while also looking out at you folks. So that way, you know we're looking at you. So it's better to get back into a place where we can sit face to face, the energy is amazing. And we had a recommendation for this setup, right?

Josh 2:04
Yeah. So we had a fan actually say, Hey, I like you guys talking to each other. But I like seeing your faces. You know, it'd be great if you could shoot kind of across of each other. We were like, we don't have the setup to do that. We were like, you know, we almost do. So we're going to do this. The only real big question now is whether or not my computer can bear two cameras coming into it. Because last time we tested this, you got way out of sync. We tested now it seems like it's good.I updated the software, there was an update about and stuff hanging. So hopefully, that solves the problem. And we'll find out.

Josh 2:46
But today we wanted to talk about equality in non monogamy and this thing that we've been seeing a lot about people wanting their non monogamous relationships to be equal. So do you kind of want to maybe introduce that, and then we can go in from there.

Cassie 3:06
So what we end up seeing is we see folks who are like, Okay, so I've got this partner here, and I got this partner there. And I've got to make these relationships, you know, equal. I got to make them equal because equality is a good thing. And here's the thing, a lot of times equality is a good thing, in many ways we want equality. But what it ends up looking like is I'm trying to make my relationships look the same. And that ends up causing a lot of issues because our relationships aren't meant to be the same. So we've seen extreme things like maybe I need to get a divorce because I can't be married to two people. And now those relationships can't be the same.

Josh 3:52
Well, and

Josh 3:52
So this is a really good topic. So I know when you and I were talking about this, that this actually kind of entered like the mainstream conversation non monogamy you felt like a few years ago with like one specific thing that happened. Do you want to like talk about that real quick?

Josh 4:11
Yeah. So there was a couple who was married and they had an incomming partner, they created a triad and then years later, the husband and wife divorced, so that way he could marry the other partner. And I remember seeing like it wasn't just in the non monogamy space at the time. I remember seeing a lot of like, really hyped up articles in the general media of like, he divorced his wife to marry his girlfriend, like stuff like that.

Cassie 4:40
So it was

Cassie 4:41
It was like on the Facebook news feeds and stuff. And it was really hyped up and when you get below the surface, like what happened was they did this for medical insurance purposes, right like the wife had her own medical insurance. She had really good health insurance, he had really good health insurance, the incoming partner didn't. So the whole idea was we'll get divorced, we'll get married, she'll get my health insurance. So there was this whole idea behind it.

Cassie 5:14
So there is truth that like, there is differences in relationships based on things like marriage, or how long you've been together, and just how society is constructed.

Josh 5:29
But what we've kind of seen this morph into over the years, and this is something we've been running across a lot in the last few weeks, is this idea that relationships should be equal. And I wanted to find equality here. So in the last aborted time that we did this, where it didn't work, you know, one of the discussions you and I were having was about equality. And I think we came to a really good point on it, which is that the challenge with equality, right, and where that becomes a problem relationship.

Josh 6:01
So here's the thing, like I think, what the challenge is that, you know, the non monogamy community as a whole, tends to be very invested in equality for all kinds of different people, and all kinds of different situations and all kinds of different spaces.

Cassie 6:23
For very good reasons, too.

Josh 6:25
Well, yeah, of course. And like equality is a good thing. But I think the problem is, what happens is, we have this model that we develop as non monogamous folks that equality is good. And equality is good in most things that we're talking about, right? But then we wind up playing a language game, because the problem is, when people start talking about equality and relationships, they're talking about equality and relationships the same way that they're talking about equality in terms of like, race, or gender opportunities, or all kinds of different things, right.

Josh 7:04
But what they're really talking about, at the end of the day, when you get past the label of equality, is we're talking about people trying to make their relationships look the same. And thinking that making their relationships look the same, is the way to make things fair and to make things work and to make things healthy. And that little definition, right of equality and the shift of understanding that what people are really talking about behind using the word equality is "I want all of my relationships to look the same." That's where you really start to understand the challenges that come in. And I do want to talk about those because I think for most people, they're probably right now going, Well, I mean, of course, equality is great. Like, we like equality, we just talked about that. So why wouldn't equality in our relationships be an awesome thing? So can you talk about that, again, from this understanding that like what people are saying, when they're saying that in the way that we see it used? Where it causes problems is looking the same?

Cassie 8:09
Yeah. So the issue is the sameness, right? It's the, well, I have a relationship of 10 years, where, you know, we have kids, and I've got another relationship of 10 weeks, I want to make those relationships look the same. Or I'm trying to spend the same amount of time with, you know, all of my partners, even though I've got four partners, and there's only seven days in the week, right? So there, there ends up being this struggle of trying to fit the relationships that you have, into sort of-

Josh 8:50

Cassie 8:51
Boxes, right, these four boxes, so that way, they can look the same across the board. So that way, well, this relationship gets 2.5 days out of the week, this relationship gets 2.5 days out of the week. If this relationship, we go out on these kinds of dates, I've got to make sure that I'm giving this partner the same kind of dates. And this idea of equal turns into, I have to have these things be the same.

Josh 9:21
So, this is really good. So I want to get a little more specific, though, on some of the examples where we actually see this pop up because, you know, in generalities, it's kind of like, well, okay, you know, maybe that still makes sense. But I'll give a couple examples in different fields that we see. Right?

Josh 9:39
I have a household and kids and a life with somebody where we're, entwined and we have shared responsibilities and shared things that we have to do as far as time and I want to spend the same amount of time with this person, as I do with my new partner. Okay, well, the problem is, you may be spending the same amount of time. But it isn't really the same amount of time. Because actually you're spending a bunch of your time doing unfun things, right, and life things and things with your kids and things like that. Whereas the time with this other partner is all fun.

Cassie 10:13
And I've even seen it where it's like, I'm spending two days and two nights with this partner two days and two nights with that partner, but the two days and two nights is when you're working, right, and things like that.

Josh 10:25
So you have it in that sense. So okay, so I think the places that I see this happen a lot, is I'll separate this out. And you tell me if you think I'm right here. Time, which we're talking about here, right? And actually, before we go off that we have a client right now, who is a good example of that, if you want to just share that real quick?

Cassie 10:43
Yeah, so you're talking about my dating client, right?

Josh 10:45

Cassie 10:45
Yeah, so he's dating. And he has found a couple of partners that he's kind of like dating. He has one that he really, really connected with, and wanted to spend more than just like, one day a week with this person, right? He was like, I want to start adding in a day. But because he gave this one person two days, he felt he needed to give the other two, two days in order to be in his words, equal. Like, that's right, right? I want my relationships to be equal. So he gave it. So he really had six days out of the week that he had dates.

Josh 11:25
And he works.

Cassie 11:25
And has a life and awesome, amazing hobbies, and friendships and other things going on in his world. And he was getting completely burned out. And the truth was, you didn't even really want to spend the extra days with the other two partners, it was out of the idea of, well, if I'm giving this other relationship an extra day, I need to give these other two relationships an extra day.

Josh 11:50
So time is one place that we really see this happen. This this idea of equality winds up clashing with, you know, trying to make the relationships the same winds up clashing, right. And I think I might use the word sameness from here out, because like I said, I think that's a better definition, what people are really talking about that causes problems.

Josh 12:09
I want to separate out just real quick for people equality, from fairness, right? And we'll leave it quality is kind of like the sameness. So there's that the other place I see it, there was in terms of decision making. I remember, a few years ago, we ran into a situation where there was a couple who had been together a number of years, right, and who had kids together. And they had a new partner who had been there for like, three, four months, I think.

Cassie 12:43
Mhm. Under six months.

Josh 12:44
Under six months. And it turned into this huge equality thing, because she didn't have an equal say, in where the kids were going to go to school. So that, and similarily you know, we have seen a couple of these lately of like, well, if I'm dating another person, I have to divorce you. So that's not equal. So time and decision making. I feel like are the two real big places that you see it pop up? Do you agree?

Cassie 13:12

Josh 13:13
And the problem is, folks, oh, go ahead.

Cassie 13:17
And one kind of, like bullet down from time is activities and how that time is being spent?

Josh 13:25
And sex. I mean, really, you could put it all under decisions.

Cassie 13:28
Yeah, I was just saying, like, there's definitely like, under time, there's like, equal sex and-

Josh 13:36
Equal sexual activities.

Cassie 13:39
And also like, activities as far as like what you're doing for dates and going places and things like that.

Josh 13:48
And so there's a couple problems here with this folks, right, which is, so I just want to start off and say that looking at your relationships, in terms of equality is just a bad metric. And I don't care what the general wisdom may be on that, right. Because when you do that, when you're looking at things as far as needing to be the same...

Josh 14:19
Number one, you're taking away from the awesomeness of non monogamy. Right? And building these custom relationships. But the bigger thing, I want to talk about this first, is it just doesn't work. Because people are different. And every situation is different and every person has different needs and every relationship has different needs. And when you're trying to make everything look the same, you aren't letting anything work in the way that it needs to work.

Cassie 14:58

Cassie 14:59
And you end up creating, well, first off, you end up creating conflict in your own relationships, right? Because you aren't getting what you need, or your partners aren't getting what they need. But you also end up creating, like, conflict between metamours, you end up having the other sides of the hinge kind of having tit for tat. And, you know, oh, if that one has this, and I'm supposed to have that, and going back and forth, and that's never a game that anybody wants to be in.

Josh 15:32
Yeah, this is a good point. So folks, if you ever have been or are currently in a situation where it feels like you're keeping score, right, like, well, they had two nights, so I had two nights, so they got one blowjob, so I get one blowjob...

Josh 15:52
That's never a good place to be. And it is definitely a sign that - because this is what happens. Because when everything becomes about things being the same, then you have to keep score to see what's the same, and what's not. And that's just a miserable thing. But the problem is, it doesn't work, right. Because again, you're not treating each relationship and each person as unique at this point. You're back to trying to shove people into boxes, right. And it winds up not being healthy, because people aren't getting their needs met, they're keeping score. They're not focused on their relationship and what they want or need here, they're focused on this other relationship and what this person's getting. Right. And so it just doesn't work. And it creates a ton of conflict, and a ton of jealousy, and maybe more than anything, and an enormous amount of people's needs not getting met.

Josh 16:49
Would you agree with that?

Cassie 16:50

Josh 16:52
So there's that. That's the first thing. And then I think the second thing about it is you're really taking away from a big piece of what makes non monogamy special. Right? Which is the ability to have different relationships with different people, based on where you're both at as people and in the world.

Cassie 17:32
Yeah, I mean, I can give our relationships an example. You and I have much more higher sex drives and need more time for sex. Amanda, not so much. And so like, if we were keeping tat for that, like, that would get really, really stressful really quickly.

Josh 17:51
Actually, let's take this back. There was a point in time, not with Amanda, but with a previous partner where it did.

Cassie 17:59

Josh 17:59
Do you remember?

Cassie 18:00
Like almost a decade ago, but yeah.

Josh 18:01
Yeah. Because we wanted everything to be equal and balanced. They had a much lower sex drive, so we just weren't having sex. And that didn't work out well for anybody.

Cassie 18:11
Much lower sex drive.

Josh 18:12
Much lower.

Cassie 18:13
Yeah. And and the thing was, is that like, it ended up being where our needs weren't getting met, because we were like, Oh, we don't want this person not to feel-

Josh 18:28
Left out.

Cassie 18:29
Yeah, we don't want them to feel left out. We don't want them to feel like we're not being equal about things. Right. So it turns into this sort of, you know, keeping score. But it doesn't just go into just sex. I mean, sex is a glaring example. But like, me and Amanda, love to spend time doing things like cuddling and watching horror movies and going and getting ice cream. And I enjoy doing that weekly with Amanda. That is not something that you would enjoy doing weekly. And there's other things that you and I would enjoy. Like the other night we watched, you know, a new like sci fi-ish kind of TV show.

Josh 19:11
It was alright.

Cassie 19:12
It was alright. But we do like our sci fi, which Amanda can't stand, right? So if I'm sitting here like, oh, well, if I'm watching this with you, then I've got to watch this. And it goes down to even like activities, like we're people who like to go out and do more hiking and walking and things like that. And trying to force people into those things doesn't work.

Josh 19:37
One of the stories I like to tell about this, years ago, we were out with a couple of friends. And they were married and he was talking about how he went and he had this amazing day with one of his partners and how they went out and they picked apples and they went home and they spent like the whole afternoon like making vegan apple pie, right? And his wife, like turns to us and goes, this is why I don't understand why people get jealous. She's like, I mean, I don't know what I was doing that day, but it damn sure was better than making vegan apple pie. Right.

Josh 20:17
And I'm saying that kind of in jest. And it's a funny example. But you know, one of the amazing things about non monogamy is the ability to intersect with people with where your lives intersect with each other and where your personalities intersect, and to custom build the relationships into something that work for you. And if you're focused on everything being equal, aka the same, you're completely losing out on that entire piece.

Cassie 20:46
Yeah, and this goes into like the time thing, and I'll give this as, like, another example. I had a partner it was like one of the only other men that I've dated aside for you, and like a lot of years. And he and I, we texted a few times a week, we saw each other for a couple months, like, once or twice a month. And that was it. And it was great, because that's what worked for us. He had another relationship that like, you know, was more time consuming, things like that, you know, I had this relationship here with you, and everything else. And it was great, because we texted a little bit throughout a week. And I saw him like once or twice a month for you know, it was a long, long relationship. But like, that worked. Like that's what worked for what we had going on. And if I tried to make that relationship something where I was seeing that person more often, or things like that, it wouldn't have worked. Just timewise and things like that. So it would have been a relationship that could not have existed at all. Because it wouldn't have worked for us.

Josh 22:03
So you're missing out on that. Right. And so I think that's the the second piece of what doesn't work with that is, you know, having different relationships is a wonderful thing. Like I said, I mean, it is really one of the benefits of non monogamy. I mean, if all of your relationships are going to be exactly the same, I mean, in some ways, you might as well be monogamous, right, because you're basically just having the same relationship three times, instead of having three different relationships. And then you just have to juggle calendars and pie, I mean... And again, I'm saying this somewhat in jest, but really like having the ability to have those different relationships and to meet people where they're at, and where you're at is a beautiful thing.

Cassie 22:51
You're missing out on all the potential that relationships really can have.

Cassie 22:55
And the thing is, I don't think people do this intentionally. But they're just not thinking about it right there thinking in terms of equality is good. Therefore, this all needs to be equal, which means it must all be the same. Right?

Josh 23:08
And then the last problem that I really see in this, you know, we talk a lot of times about the places that people - when their relationships are off track, and not working- the rabbit holes they go down, that don't only keep them from solving the problem, it gives us like false sense of making progress. Which is dangerous in and of itself, because you're not. But not only not solving the problem, but actively making things worse.

Josh 23:46
Right. And folks, we talk about this concept of relationship inertia. I'm not sure we've talked about it on the show for a while, right? But the idea behind relationship inertia is really simple.

Josh 24:36
And something that would otherwise be good happened. You had a cool day together, right? You hit a milestone, a holiday, an anniversary, something good happened in your life. And chances are that instead of that bringing the relationship up, then that thing just kind of sucked. Right? So our relationships have inertia and they're always moving in one direction. They're either moving towards getting better or they're moving towards getting worse. And the further they go, right, like, the better they get, or the worse they get, the harder it is to turn them around and start moving them in the other direction.

Josh 25:08
This is why when your relationship is amazing, you can withstand a blow, right and things go fine. This is why when your relationship is awful, you know, you can have the best time in the world. And a. it probably sucks to begin with. But b. even if it is good it last like a day, right?

Cassie 25:23
Or something as small as like someone putting a dish somewhere wrong can turn into like a huge giant blow up.

Josh 25:29
Yeah. And so because of that, when your relationships are in a spot, you don't want them to be, there is always a cost to pay to doing something that seems helpful, but isn't. Because number one in the in the time that you spend on that thing, that your relationship is not improving, your relationship is then getting worse. And again, the worse it gets, the harder it is to turn back around. And a lot of times for people, that breaking point comes as a shock, right, it's the straw that broke the camel's back, and all of a sudden, everything's done.

Josh 26:10
Right. So there's always a price to pay for, for you know, taking action that isn't actually fixing things. But along with that, I'll also say that when you're trying to do this, it usually isn't just that you are not fixing things by trying to use this approach instead of addressing the real problems, you're actually making things worse. Because as we said, when you start trying to shove things into boxes, people's needs start not getting met, and you incur jealousy and arguments and all the above,

Cassie 26:35
You start compounding problems. You start off with the challenges that you have. And now you're creating more. It's not just what was there, you're actually compounding it with people's needs not getting met with people feeling jealous with people feeling , you know, that- when we're getting crammed into a box, we feel it. Right, that's just the way it is in our relationships, when we feel like we're having to be something or live a way because of someone else, it doesn't typically go well. So you already have the challenges, but what you're doing is you're actually compounding them.

Josh 27:13
Well because the the solution you're trying to make becomes the problem. Right? So you know, easy example of this is I have a partner who's not getting their time needs met. Okay, that's a little rough. Right? But now if instead of fixing that problem through communication and negotiation and making sure people's needs are getting met, I just go cool. You know what, I get my other partner three days a week. So if you're feeling bad about time, I'll give you three days a week. Okay, fine. But now, I have the other partner who is really pissed off because their time needs are now not getting met in an even worse way. Because as I said before, you know, I have a newer partner, three days with them, right, is not the same as three days with somebody who I live with and have kids and responsibilities with.

Cassie 28:03
And going to work.

Josh 28:04
Yeah. So now it isn't just that I have people feeling their needs aren't getting met as far as time. I also have somebody else who's like, oh, okay, so this new person, right? Clearly you care about them more than me, because you're spending more fun time with them. And I guess on top of that, I guess I'm just becoming the boring partner, right, because all your fun times are spent with them and all our time spent doing life stuff. And we don't even have any connected time. And now we're drifting further apart, you, you've added to the problems that were there.

Cassie 28:31
And going into that whole like activity thing, because you're talking about time. Activities, we see this all the time, it starts being like we're not feeling connected. Well, it must be because me and my other partner are feeling connected because we're having sex. So now, I'm trying to make us have sex the same way I'm having sex over here, or doing the same things that I was doing with this partner over there. And rather than actually speaking to the needs of what that partner needs for connection and intimacy, you're now playing, you know, basically, the role that you do in the other relationship, you're kind of bringing, okay, this is what I do here, over here.

Josh 29:10
Well, and it's not just that, right, because, you know, these are actually kind of smaller examples. But when you start getting into things like- I mean, you know, I noticed some people this, well, I'm married to you, and that's not equal. So I need to divorce you because I'm with this other person. I know that may sound like an out there example. But it is not. We've run across that a couple times in the last couple of weeks.

Josh 29:38
So I'd say those are kind of the three biggest problems that I see. Right is number one, you're keeping people from getting their needs met, which causes problems and conflict and jealousy and things like that. Number two, as I said, you're just not taking advantage of one of the best things about non monogamy. And then number three, most of the time people are trying to use this because you generally don't just do that. Look, anytime we make a change, we're trying to solve a problem, right? You don't just do this to do it, right. And so people are looking at their problems that they're having, and instead of solving them in a way that's actually going to help, they're trying to make things look the same.

Josh 30:23
Because, again, well, things should be equal. Equality is good. This doesn't look equal, so therefore, the problems here must be related to the fact that things need to be more equal and more the same. And now you're creating problems that weren't even there before, and usually you haven't even fixed the first problem to begin with, because you didn't design your solution based on the needs that weren't being met. You just kind of beat it with a sledgehammer. Right?

Josh 30:47
So if those are the myths around this, what is the truth? And what is the way that people should be looking at equality, and fairness, and decision making? And how they're solving problems in their relationships? It's a couple different questions, don't feel the need to try and chunk it all in one answer.

Cassie 31:12
I think the first important thing is to recognize that while we want to treat people as equal humans with equal like relationship rights for where they are, our relationships do not need and probably shouldn't have sameness. Our relationships should be uniquely designed for that relationship, for where it's at. The point at which that relationship and you and your partner are intersecting is where you should be making those decisions where things should be aligning and changing and how you form things like time and activities. And the decisions that you make should be based on that unique relationship versus trying to make any any relationship have sameness.

Josh 32:09
I would really encourage, when you're looking at your relationships, right? I would encourage you to kind of toss out the word equality, because it isn't a good metric. And I'm not even a huge fan of the word fairness. I think fairness is important. Don't get me wrong. And I think it is a much more accurate term for what we should be looking for in our relationships than equality. But I don't think being like what's fair, here is a particularly useful question, because it doesn't actually get you an answer that gets you anywhere. Right. I think the question that you should be asking when you're in these situations, is, what is the solution here that results in everybody being happy and healthy and getting their needs met?

Josh 32:59
That is a much better question than equality, or even then fairness. And I think that'd be kind of the first paradigm shift that people need to make is to look at things and say, hey, you know, this isn't about equality. Right? It isn't even really about fairness. But what is the solution that will lead to the people here being happy and healthy, and cared for and fulfilled in this relationship? Does that make sense?

Cassie 33:32

Josh 33:33
I think that's the first piece. And then the second piece would be embrace the differences, the non equality, like, embrace the differences in your relationships.

Cassie 33:51
Yeah, because let's face it, we typically are with more than one person, because we enjoy the humans that they are. Like we're with the people that we're with, because they are individuals, because they are different, because they are a human that we have decided that we want to spend our time and energy with. So embrace that and enjoy that human for the human that they are and the relationship that the two of you have created.

Josh 34:20
I mean, look, going back to the point I made earlier, like I love Cassie, but if I wanted to date to Cassies, I would just date one Cassie twice the time. Right? Like, the amazing thing about non monogamy, folks, is that you get to, as I said before, intersect with different people, depending on how your personality and your life intersects with their personality and their lives and who you both are as humans. And you get to build around that. These custom designer kind of relationships you get to build whatever relationships work best and enrich the lives of everybody involved. Like embrace that. That's what makes the whole project and the time and balancing the calendars and navigating all of that. That's what makes that worth it. And then the last piece, I think, is don't ever try to fix the problems that you're having in your relationship by trying to make them more equal.

Cassie 35:32
Yeah, leave sameness out of out of the equation when you're trying to find solutions. Really look into what is the current challenge, and what is going to meet the needs of the individuals having that challenge.

Josh 35:51
And folks listen, like, here's the truth that I want you to understand about relationships. And I know, when you're in a spot where your relationship isn't going where you want, and there's arguing, or there's jealousy, or there's upset or there's hurt, or you're on the edge of losing that or losing your family. I know that just any straws that are there, you want to grasp them, and understandably so. Right. And I appreciate the draw of that. And I appreciate the draw of being like, hey, equality, boom, do that problems are solved. We're good, right?

Josh 36:29
But here's the truth, folks. And I really need you to understand this because it is so important. You are never going to turn a relationship around or heal a relationship with one magic bullet. Like, there is never one specific thing that like you can just do. And then boom, your problems are solved. If that was the case, we would have one ever episode of the Touch of Flavor show. We wouldn't need to coach and everybody would just be good. Well, shouldn't say that, cuz they would still need help implementing the one thing because we're all humans and humans don't do the stuff we're supposed to do. Right.

Josh 37:13
But we would have one episode ever of the Touch of Flavor show. Right? When things are going wrong in our relationships, there is always a level of it being more than one problem, because the things our relationships, the communication, the sense in which we feel heard and seen, right? The sense in which we feel love. The security that we have, the jealousy that we feel, they're all intertwined. There's never just one challenge going on in a relationship. It's impossible for your communication to be absolutely horrendous. And the security and your connection in your relationship to be amazing. Right, it's impossible for the connection, your relationship to suck. But the sense that you two are going to remain together forever, and not having jealousy and feeling fulfilled are all going to be great. Right?

Josh 38:13
There's never just one challenge. And there is never just one thing to work on. One thing to put in place that will magically fix that and you should never believe anybody who tells you that there is I know so often like oh, like and in non monogamy, it tends to be the communication or the jealousy, right? Just fix the communication, you just fix the communication, everything here- amazing, right? No other problems, all your other problems can be solved and go away, right? Or if you just learned to stop being jealous, and you reached like that maximum poly level, all your problems are done, you will sail off into the sunset, on a rainbow and with no further problems and like, everything will be solved.

Cassie 38:58
And the truth is this is like the Polyamory Platypus-

Josh 39:04

Cassie 39:06
Like stepping in, right? And being like, here you go. Here's your platitude. And you'll see this over and over again, people will be like, just fix the jealousy or just fix the communication.

Josh 39:17
Just make things equal.

Cassie 39:19
And you'll hear that and it's, it's really, it's meant as like, a good thing. Like I want to speak to those humans who are like trying to be helpful. But the problem is, is that's not how relationships work. Our relationships are not just like this straight forward line, we have all these interlocking things going on, because we're multi dimensional creatures. Come on now. Right? So with that, there's always those overlaps that you're talking about. There's always going to be the things that overlap each other. The intimacy and the communication and the feeling loved or jealousy versus the time we spend together, those things are linked and typically there isn't going to be one solution. And it certainly isn't trying to make your relationships the same.

Josh 40:14
So, with that, and folks, I'm seeing and thinking that we may have gotten out of sync a little bit this episode. So apologies for that. We're gonna publish it anyways, because you guys need an episode to get out. And we keep having all these experiments. And going and this one has been on point, even if the video isn't exactly in sync, where we want it to be.

Cassie 40:38
So if I'm a little behind or like doing weird stuff, just close your eyes and listen.

Josh 40:42
So we will have to evaluate that, for the next time. Super wierd to be sitting across the table from you and to see you like a second later on your screen then you are here. So maybe my computer's powerful enough to do it, but only for a certain period of time. I don't know might be time to upgrade the equipment. I have to see. But MacBooks man, they go forever, but it is a 2015 at this point.

Josh 41:10
So getting back to the point that we were just making. If you're in a spot where you're having struggles don't fall for like the one magic bullet thing. Like there is no one magic bullet. And when you chase that, right, as we said, it isn't just that you lose the valuable time and your relationship gets dragged downhill. But most of these things. You know, the conventional wisdom is almost always wrong. That's why it's the conventional wisdom. And if you look at non monogamy is a whole, the unfortunate truth is conventionally a ton of non monogamous relationships break down, right?

Josh 41:55
Most of the time, that one piece of conventional wisdom, that's the thing that you're focused on, it's promised to be the magic bullet is not only not going to work, but it's going to damage things. So don't ever take that like when we work with our clients. This is why we talk and work on raising the level of the entire relationship at once. Because that's the only way to do it. And just like I said, don't, don't fall for the one thing, right work on raising the level of your entire relationship, do the work that it takes to do that. And don't ever fall for the like, false one thing promise, because it will never work. And it always causes way more problems than it's solved.

Josh 42:33
And if you want our help to do that, that's totally cool. That is how we work with our clients, you can go to And we're happy to help you and work you through that. And you know, we'll get on the phone and come up with a plan. So you go to that page, you'll go to our calendar, right, you'll pick a time that works for you. And after that's done, you'll go to a little short application, fill that out, got a little bit of information that we need for your call, right to get ready. But basically what will happen is, at the time you pick somebody from our team will give you a call, right? And we'll go through and talk about what the problems really are in the relationship, what your dream relationships would look like. And then what are the actual steps, not like the one magic thing, but what are the actual steps that it would take to close that gap. And to get you to your dream relationships.

Josh 43:22
And if we can help do that, we'll do that. If it's something else, we will point you in that direction, we'll do that. Right. But that way, no matter what you get off the call the ton of clarity around what the challenges are and what steps you need to take next. And you'll actually have a really solid plan instead of being scurrying for the next thing, the next thing, next thing, the next shiny thing, that's probably going to be the thing that fixes you know, the one change you need to make that fixes your relationship. Right? So if you want to help to do that,

Josh 43:51
But other than that, folks, I would say, if there's one thing I wanted you to take away from this. It would be stop focusing on equality in your relationship, stop using that as a metric, right? Focus on what is going to make the people in this relationship happy and healthy and fulfilled and is actually going to work and make your decisions based on that.

Cassie 44:16

Josh 44:18
Anything else you want to say?

Cassie 44:19
No, I think you covered it really well. And I think this is a great topic to cover and we look forward to the next show.

Josh 44:27
Alright, everybody. So with that, you have an amazing day, and we'll catch you the next time around.

Josh 44:40
Thanks for tuning into today's show. We release new episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe.

Cassie 44:46
If you're ready to transform your relationship and you'd like to see if you're a fit to work with us. Here's what I want you to do next, head over to and book an appointment to speak with our team. We'll get on the phone with you for about an hour, and we'll get you crystal clear on three things. What's really not working in your relationships, what your dream relationships would look like and a step by step plan to close the gap and save your family even if nothing has worked before.

Josh 45:14
We talk with hundreds of non monogamous folks like you every year. And here's the truth, building loving, thriving relationships that doesn't happen on its own. You need expert guidance to make that happen. And unfortunately, when you were building relationships outside the box, that's impossible to find, and we get it. But that's exactly what we do. We've helped clients all over the world, save their families, get the passion back and become best friends again.

Cassie 45:38
So if you want to see if we can help you do the same, head over to I'm Cassie.

Josh 45:45
And I'm Josh. Let's talk soon.