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Coming Out as Polyamorous

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How do you “come out” as polyamorous? When is the right time to come out? Who should you come out to?

If you’re polyamorous for long enough, these questions will arise. And they’re tough to answer. 

On the one hand, you want to be authentic. But on the other hand, coming out as non-monogamous can disrupt your life and your OTHER relationships.

So what are the right answers? In this episode, we’re going to break down coming out step-by-step.

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Josh 0:00
All right, everyone. So today we're gonna talk about coming out as polyamorous. So when do you come out, how do you come out? Who do you come out to? We're going to cover all of that on today's episode, so stay tuned.

Josh 0:13
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box? Even if nothing has ever worked before? If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place.

Cassie 0:52
All of this information is 100% free. So please subscribe to and review our podcast.

Josh 1:02
Alright everybody. So today we are talking about coming out as polyamorous and this is a question that we get all the time. Right. Because you know that decision to come out as polyamorous that's something that all of us, if we're in a relationship long enough or if we're polyamorous long enough that we wind up running into, right? And when we do, there's a lot of things that get mixed up in that. There's a lot of feelings, there's a lot of risks, there's a lot of different things we wind up having to balance. So this is just an incredibly important topic.

Cassie 1:35
Yeah. And, you know, there is those risks that you just talked about, right there is things that could go wrong, such as losing your job or losing, you know, connection or support from family and friends. And really that just awful feeling of rejection that can happen as well. But in spite of all that there is so much benefit and awesomeness that can come from coming out. Because folks get to feel accepted for who they are, and have their partners and relationships acknowledged.

Josh 2:10
Yeah, well, and I think the reason this is such an important topic, right is because this is something and I kind of mentioned this a second ago, but this is something that anybody who is polyamorous long enough will run into and I say polyamory specifically, right? Because here's the thing, if you're in a spot where you know, you're doing more of the like people that you're playing with, or you're doing more of a swinging thing, like you know, you're going out and you know, going out to a club every couple weeks, or you know, you have people that you're meeting up with, you know, every month or two at their house or whatever, right? When you have relationships that are kind of more on that end of things, you know, you can go your whole life with never having to explain that relationship to anybody.

Josh 2:51
But the thing about polyamory when we're talking about romantic relationships, we're talking about people who, as a general rule, have a certain amount of involvement in our lives. And eventually, what happens is, when somebody is involved in our life enough, you get to a point where questions start to arise, questions start to arise naturally. And so when you're at that point, then you have to face this decision of coming out. So this is something that everybody who is polyamorous, long enough will face eventually. And like we said, it can be a really tricky thing to navigate with a lot of feelings with risks with things like that. So we really want to cover this for you. And the first thing that we want to break down is we kind of use coming out as this blanket term. So we want to break coming out down into three different categories that we really see people using coming out to talk about, and then we'll talk about really what we're diving into here today.

Cassie 3:49
Yeah, so the first is coming out to your partner. And just so you know, if you're not monogamous, you've been practicing non monogamy your partner should do if they don't know, you're cheating, you shouldn't be doing that. Okay. So if you are, you know, coming out, the first person, you really should have that conversation with is your partner. But that's not what we're going to cover today. Because that could be like a completely different topic. Anything else you want to chime in all about that

Josh 4:17
No. People use coming out to talk about coming out to their partners. And again, that's not what we're talking about here today. That's an entirely different discussion.

Cassie 4:22
Yeah, so that's number one. Number two, is coming out to like your family, your friends, that close network of people that you have in your life. And that is really where most people are focused when they're having these conversations when they're asking about coming out.

Josh 4:41
And that's because this goes back to what we were saying a minute ago. That's because when you have somebody who's involved in your life long enough, and you have these other people in your life, this is a place that they're going to start interacting, this is a place that questions are going to start coming up.

Josh 4:56
You know, just as an example if you're in a spot where, um, you know, like you're having holiday dinner, and your partner's there and your family's there in those circles cross, this is the part where those questions start coming up. So that's why when most people are talking about coming out, this is the level that they're talking about, this is the place to have concerns. That's where we're going to focus today. But there's really kind of one more category of coming out.

Cassie 5:19
Yeah, and that's like, the rest of things, right? Like your job, your kids school, and beyond. So the places that are further distanced, that maybe aren't going to pick these things up immediately. And this is going to be a place where it's possibly more of a choice. And there could also be even more risks. So you're gonna need to evaluate that a little differently.

Josh 5:44
We're going to touch on that kind of lightly today. But you know, this would be you know, like, when you're talking about something like coming out to your kids school, or that kind of thing, you're talking about a relationship that is either really advanced, or when that's just something you really want to do, right. So most people who are talking about coming out, it falls in this category of the interactions in our lives that we're going to have with other people. Like Cassie said, with those people close to us, right, the family, the friends, the kids, that kind of a thing. And that's where we're going to focus here today.

Josh 6:14
And so I think to start off, it's kinda, would kinda be helpful to talk about, like, the reasons for coming out. And then kind of the risks that people face, or the factors that people face when they're thinking about coming out. That work?

Cassie 6:32

Josh 6:32
Okay. So, do you want to start with kind of the reasons to think about coming out in the first place? And then I'll kind of throw in my point of view?

Cassie 6:41
Yeah. So the first is, you know, if you've been in a relationship for long enough, most of us want to be recognized, no one wants to be that dirty secret forever, right? Like, it's a little different if we just started dating. But over time, we want our relationships acknowledged. And there's, there's a couple of reasons, right? Like, we want to be able to do things, like we want to be able to be seen in public, we want to be able to spend holidays, we want to be able, if our relationship is getting serious enough to have our families interact and do things, and just really actually to be acknowledged in your life or to have you acknowledged in mine. And you said you wanted to kind of like put a little bit of a thought behind that.

Josh 7:25
Well, I'll start with this, right, it was interesting, we were talking about this, we were putting this together, I was recalling, and a partner that we used to have, who was talking about another relationship that she was in, and it was something where, so as Cassie said, nobody wants to be the dirty little secret forever, right? It's not a comfortable place for most people. And so, in her case, she was in a spot where she was in a relationship with a guy, and he was like, completely locked down to the world about being non monogamous, right. Like, that wasn't something that anybody knew about.

Cassie 7:59
Even some of his like, lifestyle friends, then like, the like, you know, kink community, things like that didn't know that he was not monogamous. Like it was locked down,

Josh 8:08
It was locked down, right. So the result of that for her was that like, you know, the, you know, she could see him like, coming over to his house, like on a weekday night, right? You know, when nobody was there. But, you know, when it came time to hang out, when it came time to go out and to do things when it came time to, you know, the weekends came around, right, you know, then he had to go out with his family and with his wife and things like that, to put on that- that image that he was projecting to different places. And she had this conversation with us of kind of what led her to end that relationship where she was saying, you know, like, that was fine to begin with. But you know, eventually, like, I want to be a Saturday night girl, too, sometimes, right? I don't just want to be a Tuesday night girl, right? Who can't who can't ever show up? Who can't ever go out and do things on the weekends who can't ever be seen. And that's a place that most people get to eventually.

Cassie 8:58
Yeah. And it's because it really does start to put major limits on a relationship after a while.

Josh 9:05
Well, and this is the thing. So when I think when we're talking about coming out, I think really what we're talking about is at the end of the day, when you're in a relationship, and you're in a romantic relationship, and you are not out about that relationship, you will eventually hit a cap where the relationship can't grow any further for one of two reasons, right? Either because of practical reasons, because they can't be around your family because they can't be around your friends because they can't be around your kids, because they can't come around on Saturday night.

Cassie 9:38
You can't go out in public.

Josh 9:39
You can't go out in public, right? So either you hit a limit because of the practical reasons. Or you hit a limit just because you get to a point where somebody is no longer willing to invest in a relationship where they can't be acknowledged as a partner, because that's something most people want. Right? So when you're not willing, and that's why I said this is more of a polyamory thing than a non monogamy thing.

Josh 9:59
But when you have romantic partner, eventually, you hit kind of a growth cap, where if you're not open and honest about that relationship to a certain extent, that relationship can't grow any further, again, either because of the practical issues around that, or because of the feelings around that. And I think that really is, I think that really is the gist of why coming out becomes such an important conversation for people.

Cassie 10:26
Yeah. And I think there's like one other thing that I would tag into that, which is, for a lot of folks, it gets hard to feel like you're being authentic, like you start to, especially if a relationship is developing, and you're having to tell the little white lies to hide it, and you're having to avoid things and you're doing all this stuff, you end up feeling like you're not really being authentic in your relationships is I think something else that is also really a big factor for folks.

Josh 10:53
Yeah. So that's the reasons that we look at, around coming out. So do you want to dive into like some of the challenges people face? Or do you want to hit that later?

Cassie 11:01
You can get it if you want. Okay,

Josh 11:03
So some of the challenges that we face when we're talking about coming out. I mean, there's somewhat like, kind of- some of them are pretty obvious here. Right? But I mean, it can be rejection, right? It can be rejected from our family, it can be rejection from our friends, right? It can be being worried about, you know, kind of how that's going to impact our kids. That's something that hits for a lot of people. And then there can be other like other really real concerns around like losing family support, right, losing childcare, around, you know, kind of being like, blackballed in your community, like, you know, we have some clients who we've worked with who have like, lived in a small town, right, and really haven't wanted a word to get around, because then it'll get around to everybody, right, and everybody will judge them for it. And everybody will, you know, there's some people have concerns about their jobs if stuff like that comes out. So the other end of this is that there's this whole other end of risk to balance that you have to consider as well.

Josh 12:01
So deciding to come out can be one of these things that people find really tricky, because they're trying to balance this wanting the relationship to be able to grow and wanting people to be acknowledged, against whatever possible risks and downfalls that they see. And I think the biggest one for most people, is really just, is really just that worry that they're going to be rejected by family, by friends, they're going to, they're going to lose relationships that they have now, for the sake of coming out for this relationship. Right.

Cassie 12:35
Yeah. And I think there's also some risks that are not covered. You know, like, coming out as like, you know, LGBTQ things like that there are legal coverages that like non monogamous relationships don't have.

Josh 12:35
Mm. Yeah, that's true.

Cassie 12:54
So there there is some things that can be worrisome.

Josh 13:00
Especially when you're talking about like job or housing or that kind of thing.

Cassie 13:03

Josh 13:03
Employment for a lot of people, you know, especially people who are like teachers, or like jobs that have morality clauses, that kind of thing.

Cassie 13:10
Yeah. But I think the majority of it definitely comes down to, and I think you worded it really well, losing those relationships.

Josh 13:16
Yeah. So then with that, like, how do you make the decision to come out?

Josh 13:23
So I mean, there's a lot of things to consider before hand and we're going to cover those, right. But I think really, as far as when to come out, if you're looking for a rule of thumb with that, it kind of gets back to what we were saying before, right. Which is, when you have somebody involved enough in your life, you're going to hit points. And there's kind of these natural inflection points, because this is something people worry about a lot, like when's the right time? Like, how long should we be together? How long should we this? How long should we that? How do we know who to tell and when? And they make it this whole complicated thing. Right.

Josh 14:02
And while there are a few things you want to consider, what we've found and what we talk to our clients about is, you know, it really is actually pretty simple. There's a rule of thumb that can make it really simple when you're thinking about coming out, right. Which is to figure out when naturally you get to a point of needing to have these conversations, which varies for everybody. Right? But what winds up happening is, as you're going through a relationship, you hit these points, it was like I mentioned earlier, right? It was the family dinner where now you're having your partner over, and you're having your family over at the same time, and you hit these points where you're either going to have to come out to some extent or another or you're going to have to lie.

Cassie 14:02
Or not have them there.

Josh 14:15
Or not have them there. So you're gonna hit these points where you have to choose between excluding your partner, or lying about them, or coming clean. Right? And that's going to be different in all of your relationships. It's gonna be different with different partners that you have, it's gonna be different with different families, it's gonna be different with everybody. Right.

Josh 15:07
But the rule of thumb that we use, and that we teach our clients to use, right is that, you know, after you've taken these other things we're gonna talk about it into consideration. You want to come out about a relationship to particular people, when not doing so would require dishonesty, or require excluding somebody from your life.

Josh 15:27
So this provides a really great balance between acknowledging your partner's roles in your lives, right, between allowing those relationships, the room to grow, and avoiding needless drama. Right?

Josh 15:40
So one really easy example. We use my family for this, right, as examples of this, right? So, Um, with my family, my parents, coming out there always knew it was going to be challenging. And I for a long time, wasn't particularly involved with my parents, right? So we were actually polyamorous for years, before there was ever an issue that arose, a conflict that arose, where it hit one of those things where I was gonna have to exclude somebody, or we were going to have to be deceptive, or going to have to come out.

Josh 16:14
And the way that wound up happening for us was we had a partner, we were really close with her. Our kids were really close, we had already agreed to spend Easter together, my parents really wanted us to come over to their house. And I was like, you know, we can do that the only way I can do is if I bring this person with us, because we've already promised to spend the day with them. And they were like, Sure. Okay, so we've gotten past the excluding, but now we're at the point where I'm either going to have to say something to my parents, or put people in the position where this is going to be really awkward, because we're gonna have to bring her we're gonna have to ignore her, we're gonna have to try to not act like partners. And then all of you know this, right? Like, when you're around people, you're romantically involved with you interact a certain way. Right?

Josh 16:54
So now there's gonna be questions now there's gonna be, you know, and it's gonna be in that spot, again, we're gonna have to be like deceptive and in denial, or going to have to come clean about it. And that was the point where I came out, which didn't mean it went well, right. On the other hand, I have, you know, different sets of grandparents, right. One of whom I'm out to, for the same kind of reason, which is there was a holiday thing, they wanted us to spend the holiday at their house, I was like, you know, we have a nesting partner, life partner, co parent to our kids, like, I'm not leaving them behind for the holiday. So you know, if you want us to come like we're going to be bringing them.

Josh 17:38
And then I have other grandparents who are very old, who aren't, you know, who weren't in a great mental state who I saw like once every six months and whom I didn't need to rock their worlds for no reason.

Josh 17:50
So like I said, like, this is something that we make so complicated, but it's actually really simple. If all you do as a guiding rule is you come out about a relationship to particular people when not doing so, it requires dishonesty, or it would require, you know, leaving that person out of someplace that you'd otherwise include them, then you'll never have to be guessing or trying to figure out, well we've been together this long. Well, you know, what, after six months, do you come out to family? Or is it eight months? Like Okay, what about siblings? Is that nine months? Or is that three months? Like how does that work?

Josh 18:23
You can do it as it comes up naturally. And like I said, that is where you don't limit the growth of that relationship. But at the same time, you don't cause yourself a bunch of needless drama, because let's be honest, coming out a lot of times, not always, but a lot of times, especially when you're talking about family members and things like that can bring drama into your life. Is there anything you want to add to that? Like just kind of the rule of thumb or do you wanna start hopping into like the other things to think about?

Cassie 18:50
Yeah, we can, we can definitely hop into the other thing I think you covered it really well. Um is, you know, we do this in monogamous relationships. Like, that's just one thing I wanted to, like, throw out there. Like, we do this in monogamous relationships, where like, Okay, I'm with this person, I've been with this person long enough that I really want to be able to take them to a holiday. I've been with this person long enough. I want them to be able to be around my children, right? And we make those decisions at the intersection of where we want that relationship to grow, and where you have to introduce people. So you know it we do this in the monogamous world constantly. It's just that layer of understanding that the introduction might be a little bit more difficult.

Josh 19:38
Well, and that's a great point. This is you know, there's a lot of things in relationships, where we know how to do them in monogamous relationships, and we needlessly complicate them when we're talking about polyamorous relationships. This is one of those things right? And while Yes, there are you know, factors to consider in terms of the amount of drama that might come into your life or how difficult it might be to introduce people, the process by which you evaluate how and when to do it, it doesn't change. Right? The factors are different, the risk levels are different, the drama is different. The things like that are different. But that process, you already know how to do this. Don't overcomplicate it for yourself. Does that make sense?

Josh 20:16
So let's talk about the concerns that you should think about, though, before coming out, because that's the general process. But, you know, obviously, there are the factors that you have to weigh into that too. Right. And I know you wanted to start with actually people being ready, like actually, your partner's being ready for that first.

Cassie 20:35
So the first thing is, is that you want coming out to be something that is intentional, voluntary, slash consensual, right. And you want that choice to be made by the people who are going to be outed, which means having that conversation with your partners, because, for example, if we're a married couple, and I come out as non monogamous, well, that's gonna bring my partner into that conversation. If I'm telling my whole family and your family, you're gonna know. So you really want to have everybody's approval on that. Everybody have that conversation upfront before you start having those conversations with people that could be impacting your partners.

Josh 21:25
And one place we see people forget this a lot is in like group dynamics, right? So there is there's a lot of times there's this thing that people do, where like, if we're in a relationship, and I'm in a - well, I mean actually doesn't even matter if it's a group dynamic, let's say we're in a relationship, I'm in a relationship with somebody else, right. The entire discussion about coming out, will wind up being between us, right, and we won't even think about this person over here getting their consent to come out when, at the end of the day, we're outing them as well.

Cassie 21:54
Yeah, it's a very common nesting partner issue. Where nesting partners, those who share like families and kids, because there is that entwinement. And let's just be honest, you know, there is usually more entwinement and more of a weighted issue, between our family,

Josh 22:11
More of a shared risk.

Cassie 22:13
A shared risk, there you go, more shared risk to things, but that person who is on the outside, that is not in that nesting situation, does get forgotten. So it's really important to make sure that all of the people who could potentially be outed are having that conversation.

Josh 22:31
And this isn't just family, right? This is social groups. This is kids, and this falls off a lot for people, you know, they'll do something we're like, you know, like, we'll be dating somebody for a while. And then we'll come out to the kids about this person being a partner never having asked them if they want to, and now they come and the kids are like- the kids know about it, right? Maybe they weren't okay with that. Or same thing with social circles? Right? You know, you have to keep in mind again, that, you know, if we run in similar social circles. And, you know, I come out as non monogamous to my social circle and talk about who my partner is, I've now outted you and maybe even if I don't talk about who my partner is, because, you know, there's a good chance that if, if this is a tight enough social circle, these are people who know me well enough or know you well enough, right? That when I said I was polyamorous, they were probably able to figure it out.

Josh 23:21
So you really need to make sure that you're getting the consent of everybody involved and doing it intentionally, not unintentionally outing people. And different people have different risk factors, right, that they play into. And this is where I was talking about shared risk, you know, with us, a lot of the risks that that comes for us might be shared, right? Because, you know, maybe like my job being impacted affects both of us or your family being impacted, affects both of us, because like, I like your family, right.

Cassie 23:48
Or childcare.

Josh 23:49
Or childcare. But, you know, we have another partner again, like what I might not be considering, or if I have another partner, what I might not be considering is, how is their family going to react? Right, if their family knows me, or has some way to hear about it? Right? Are they going to, are they going to start withholding childcare? Right? Are they going to break ties? How is this person's job or living situation going to be impacted? Right. And, you know, while this is something that we, I think people tend to worry about, especially the job thing or the living situation, you know, more than, I think we tend to worry more than is actually warranted in most cases. But that's not my decision to make. Right? That is this person's decision to make. So you have to get have, have, have and people forget this so often. If you're coming out, either about a relationship or you're coming out in a way where people are gonna be able to put those dots together, you have to make sure that everybody involved is on board. Does that make sense?

Josh 24:57
The places that might not apply right, really simply, is, you know, that situation that I was about earlier with my parents, right? So I was gonna come out to my parents and they have no idea who this other person is like, there's no intersection there, my family's never going to interact with them. They're never interact with their family, never interact with friends, never gonna interact with their social circles in any sense. Right? Okay, that could be a little different, right? Because it's not impacting them. But any time, you know, any action I take has the potential to impact this other person as far as coming out. I need their consent as well. Okay, anything else you want to throw in there.

Cassie 25:30
Um not about that. But yeah, you also just need to recognize that your decisionm to come out can affect other people, you know, and I just want to highlight what what Josh just said there is, you know, if I come out and someone is able to put the dots together, the impacts can impact our partner. So it needs to be something that is very intentional, and that you have conversations around, and don't assume.

Josh 25:56
So that's the biggest thing. But let's talk about other things that people might want to consider before coming out.

Cassie 26:06
So I mentioned before that this is not super different than like dating as a monogamous person, right. And when we're talking to clients, and we're talking to folks about coming out, the biggest thing that I tell people upfront is this, like, it's a good idea to consider the length of the relationship, or the length of time that you have been practicing non monogamy before telling everybody and there's a reason. If this is something that you're like experimenting with, and you're just kind of trying out, you may find that non monogamy doesn't work for you. And you went through this whole thing of like coming out to your family and, and the stressors around that to find out Well, this isn't something that works for you.

Josh 26:55
There's somebody recently who we know, well we don't really know actually, it's more like somebody who's been in the media recently right? Who kind of built her business on, what is it she does, she's some kind of coach we were just talking about this recently anyways, she's she's some kind of, the short version is, she's built her livelihood around working with a group of people that that skews more conservative, right?

Cassie 27:29
That Okay.

Josh 27:30
And she came out as polyamorous publicly, right, and lost an enormous portion of her following, and probably her livelihood is going to take a huge, huge bump for herself and her family along with that right. Now, here's the thing with that.

Cassie 27:48
Three months.

Josh 27:49
She's been non monogamous for three months, right? Maybe you don't do that at three months, if you have no idea if this relationships going to last, or if you're even going to be non monogamous, right. So like Cassie said, really consider for yourself, not just the length of time you've been in a relationship, like you already know how to do that when you're you're monogamous. You already know how to evaluate that and go, okay, I've been in this relationship this long. And like we said earlier, now, lives are intersecting now I need to start coming clean. But also do take into account just for yourself, how long you have been non monogamous, right? Because as Cassie said, if that's something that isn't going to stick for you, maybe, and it's new to you, and it's really going to rock your world to come out about it, or it's really going to rock this part of your world to come out to this person. Maybe sit on that a little bit.

Cassie 28:42
Yeah, it can save you a lot of needless drama, right? So take those things into consideration. And when you know, and you brought up something that I think is really, really important is that when you're coming out, it's good to pick the places and the people that you know, might be more accepting first, right? So maybe you, if you have a conservative following that isn't the first place that you come out.

Josh 29:15
Yeah, and I think we're going to talk about how to come out in a minute. But one other thing I wanted to touch on first. This is a place we see a lot of people wind up in difficulty is, you know, before coming out something you want to consider is that this person that you think about coming out to or, you know, if you're coming out to a family member, maybe you know that's gonna get around is what kind of support are you reliant on? One thing that we've seen happen not infrequently, is if, and this is usually family, right? If you're reliant on family for something, they may try and leverage that against you if they don't agree with your lifestyle.

Josh 29:54
Example of this and this is where we see this happen most of the time, and we've seen it even in our own relationships, right our own partners, if had this happen. Where this is a lot of times parents, right? I guess it could also be-

Cassie 30:06
And sometimes siblings.

Josh 30:07
Yeah. But a lot of times it's parents, though, because parents is where a lot of times we get financial support where we get childcare support, things like that, right? And a lot of times what will happen is, they'll be like, Okay, well, like, as long as you're living in sin like this, I can't support you by watching your kids anymore. And next thing, you know, you're not able to go to work, right? Or you're out your rent, or that kind of thing. So this is a place that you really need to consider. And, you know, maybe, maybe this is a spot where, yeah, you do wind up having to let this relationship grow a little slower than you would like to, because coming out would put you and your family in a very bad position. Right. And so that's something that you really have to kind of weigh in to this whole. You know, like, this is the point where I would normally come out about a relationship thing that you don't have to when you're monogamous. Okay. So let's talk about how to come out. And I think we should probably focus this on family and friends and not kids.

Cassie 31:18
Yeah. And we have a, we cover that in a podcast episode, we talk about dealing with the kids and stuff like that.

Josh 31:25
Yeah, that's exactly what I want to do this because that's a whole topic kids are a whole topic in and of themselves. We have an entire episode isn't on YouTube yet, if you're watching this on YouTube, or Facebook, but if you go to and look at our podcast episodes, or, you know, you look on iTunes, or Spotify or whatever, we have an entire episode called How to be a kick ass poly parent. And that dives, really in depth actually, into how to come out to your kids, when they come out to your kids. What you want to tell kids at different age brackets, that kind of a thing. So if you're thinking about your kids, go listen to that episode, because we're going to spend an incredible length of time on just that topic. So let's keep this the more to family and friends kind of end of things.

Cassie 32:14
Yeah, I just want to add one thing before we hop in to family and friends, okay, is the one thing about kids that I do want to put here is if your kids know, expect that other people are going to. Kids do not keep secrets well, and that's not a position you want to put your kids in.

Josh 32:30
Well, and the other piece of that is kids are very perceptive, right? So your kids will probably be some of the first people to pick up on your relationships, even if you're not telling them right. And now if you're not telling them, they're in the position of wondering what you're doing wrong, or why it's being covered up, and that can put you in a really awkward position. So if you're polyamorous if you have kids, if you have any questions in your mind about when to come out to them, how to come out to them. Go listen to that episode on how to be a kick ass poly parent, and we dive really deep into that, right. But for here, let's kind of focus on family versus friends, I think.

Cassie 33:05
That was all I wanted to put in there is that, you know, is that they're usually some of the first people to recognize and notice things. And you don't wanna-

Josh 33:12
And the last people we tell. That's akward.

Cassie 33:14
Yeah! And recognize that they are not good secret keepers. So when coming out to family and friends, you want to kind of like go after the like easy, low hanging fruit. And I know that's a funny thing to say about your friends. But we get to a place where we want to start coming out because we want to start being able to do some of those things like go to social functions, things like that. So maybe I don't come out to my parents who are conservative, but I come out to like my best friend who's a lesbian tattoo artists or my cousin who's in the, like, BDSM community, who maybe they're not non monogamous, but I know, most likely they're going to be people who are more accepting, or, you know, I come out to a buddy at work that I know is like super super, like liberal things like that. So it can be helpful to start coming out to the people that you know, are going to be the most accepting first.

Cassie 34:15
So, um, you know, those people in your life that you know, are more likely to be accepting. And also, these people might be in places, and this is gonna hit that. So like your lesbian best friend, tattoo artist doesn't socialize with anybody that you have at work. Doesn't socialize with your family. So there's a lower risk of that being put out to other people or your person that you're talking to accidentally slipping and saying it to the wrong person. So you can start with the people that you think are most accepting, but also the people who are at least risk to accidentally come out, like out you to the people that may not be accepting or that you're not ready to come out to, yet.

Cassie 34:18
And who aren't going to be able to withhold support or really have that heavy impact on their lives. Because what you'll find is, is a lot of people are actually more accepting than you give them credit for. Right? And especially once they see you interacting with your partners, right? You know, it's, for most people who aren't in a non-monogamous space at all, there's like this whole, like, Oh, God, like, you know, you're all just having sex all the time. And it's this, and it's that and it's, and they actually, like, see you interacting with people with your partners, right? And, you know, not being like sex crazed harlots, right, or at least not in that context, right. And for them, you know, that that can really help things. So that's one thing.

Josh 35:43
But the other thing too, that's really important is, especially when you're talking about family members, friends, people in your social circles, that kind of a thing. And circles, where not everybody may be as accepting is, you start building that support and that backup, right, so just as an example, you know, if you have parents who you know are going to be completely unaccepting, and you're going to need to come out to them at some point, for the long game, it's gonna be a lot more likely to have a good outcome on that if your parents are the only one in your whole family unit who are not accepting. And meanwhile, all of your siblings are like, you know, like, Why are you being so judgmental? Why are you, you know, like, not accepting your kids? Why are you this? Why are you that? Right? And kind of standing up for you. Or are like, Okay, well, we're going to, this has happened for us, like, okay, fine, then we're gonna have the family event at our place, and people are invited, and you can also come parents or you can come. But just know that everybody's invited. So that's really helpful to have those people who are accepting and to go to those people, before you go to the people, you know, are going to be difficult.

Cassie 36:50
Yeah. And also to have that buffer time, where they get to see your relationships, and they get to like, back you up, like, you know, and say, like, this is a great person in their life, etc, etc.

Josh 37:00

Cassie 37:01
So where do you go from here?

Josh 37:04
Um, let's talk about actually having the conversation and particularly with people who don't know if it's going to go well, because I mean, having the conversation with people, you know, we're going to be fine with it. It's kind of like cool have it. Right? You know, you have the sister who is the kinky lesbian tattoo artist who's also polyamorous, you don't need a lot of groundbreaking prep to have that discussion. But let's talk about everybody else.

Cassie 37:25
Yeah. And when we're going through this kind of like prep stuff, or the planning, this is also good stuff to consider, even if you're telling someone who's going to be accepting, but it's so vital for the people who are not necessarily the people you think might go well with.

Josh 37:40
Let's talk about being prepared first.

Cassie 37:41
Yeah. So first off, before coming out, talk to your partners beforehand, be a united front, we talked about deciding, you know, that we are coming out and having that conversation, but also make sure that you are in agreement about what you're sharing. So make sure like, how much information are we sharing? If we're saying that we're non monogamous, are we talking about our partners? Like, what is the information that we are sharing with other people, because we don't want to be in a situation where we're being asked questions. And then we're like, you know, that can be kind of awkward. So be prepared for like what you are sharing.

Cassie 38:24
And I think a big part is also knowing upfront, your response to the ifs or the risks that could be involved. So if you know that you could possibly, you know, lose child care what if that happens, knowing up front how I'm going to handle that, if you come out to your family about going to a holiday event or something like that. If your family says Hell no, knowing upfront what your response to that is going to be ahead of time. If you receive threats from family or things like that, or if you're getting ultimatums, what are you planning to say and respond with? So that way, you know that upfront and particularly, you can be a united front with the partners who are around.

Josh 39:14
So the next two things is to consider kind of like times and places, right? So time, timing is so important. So many people mess this up so bad, right? So when you have these conversations with people, you want to have them number one at a time where this other partner that you're coming out about, isn't there. Like if you're coming out to your parents, right, about being non monogamous. You know, your partner who you've been dating for a year, who's never met, your family does not and should not be there for that conversation. That is putting them in the middle, in a position, in the middle of shit that is not theirs to own.

Cassie 39:49
That is a shit show.

Josh 39:50
That is a shit show. It's akward. Not only is it more awkward, right? But it's putting them in a bad position they shouldn't be in, right so you don't do that. You don't do this where Like, okay, Hey, mom and dad come over for dinner. Oh, by the way, this is Julie Oh, by the way, we're polyamorous and Julie's my partner, right? Like Yeah, like No, no.

Josh 40:12
And in addition to timing, right, you know, anytime you're talking about coming out or this kind of thing, you want to do this intentionally to plan time, right? This isn't what you do in the middle of Easter dinner, right?

Cassie 40:23
Or when you're angry.

Josh 40:24
Or when you know, when you're pissed off and you're arguing or you're like, this is something you set a time, you're like, Hey, you know, I'm gonna go out to dinner with mom and dad, and you sit down, and you have the conversation, right? You don't come out in a, you know, if you do something like coming out, you know, at a holiday or a funeral, or, you know, people who've done this, right, or things like that, you know, you're setting yourself up for failure, and not only failure, but really for everybody to have a miserable time. Which isn't. Yeah,

Cassie 40:57
And I'll tack on-

Josh 40:57
You wanna keep the focus on the coming out.

Cassie 40:59
Yeah. And I will tag on,

Josh 41:00
Not on what a A-hole you are for coming out at Easter,

Cassie 41:04
Or making it about you, you know, if someone's funeral, or someone's, you know, birthday, and you're coming out. And also, you know, the thing is, is it's better to come out to fewer people at a time versus making it like a huge thing at Thanksgiving dinner where it's like, Mom, Dad, Auntie, Uncle, Grandma, Hey, I'm polyamorous, right? Being able to have those conversations with like, your parents or like your parents and a sibling, a group of smaller people allows you to have those conversations, and them to ask questions. And for you to be able to handle one or two people in a conversation versus a whole group of family.

Josh 41:40
Yeah. So next thing you know, we're talking about spaces. And we always really suggest having these conversations, either over the phone, or if you want to have them face to face, which is totally fine. Um, but having them on neutral ground. Right. And in public, preferably. So what I mean by neutral ground or ground you own is you don't want to have these conversations like at your family's house. People get a lot more entitled, and loud, and aggressive, sometimes in their own spaces. Right. So if you're not having this conversation over the phone, you don't want to have it at somebody's house. Right? You could have it at your house, but honestly, I wouldn't even have it there.

Josh 42:24
What we prefer to tell people is to do it in a public venue, you know, go out to dinner, go to a Starbucks, something like that. Something where there's other people around, right? Because, you know, number one, people are a lot more likely to maintain control themselves and not fly off the handle in public situations, right. It's just like a social conditioning thing. You know, most people are going to act much differently in private, you know, and especially in their own home than they do in public. Right. But the other important thing is, you know, on the off chance, and it's an off chance, but it is a chance, depending on the people in your life, that this was to get violent, we had a partner whose father got physical with her when she came out, right? Again, that's something that's going to be much less likely to happen in a public venue. And if it does, there's going to be other people around to intervene. Right. Before things get too serious.

Josh 43:17
So that is what we suggest. And also, if you have family members who maybe have problems with alcohol. And you know, like, or are the kind of people who will drink too much to have a serious conversation or drink too much for that conversation to go well, then set it up at a venue that doesn't serve alcohol. That's like, bonus points there.

Cassie 43:41
Yeah. Pick a place to have coffee.

Josh 43:47
And then, when you're actually having the discussion. How do you go about doing that?

Cassie 43:50
So the first thing and this is I think one of the things that people tend to do really poorly whenever we're giving bad news. But this is just, it's good not to build, right? Don't call your mom up and be like, Hey, we need to have a conversation. You he might need to sit down.

Josh 44:07
I really serious.

Cassie 44:08
I love you.

Cassie 44:09
I just want to make sure that you always love me, no matter what I tell you, like don't do that. Just, you know, say hey, I've got something to talk about with you. Whether it's on the phone or like, hey, I'd like to have a conversation with you. Let's go like you know, meet up and do that. Don't make it this huge thing. Because when you do that, that brings everybody's anxiety including your own up. So don't do that. Start the conversation with just hey, we've got something to talk about. Make the plan, talk about it or talk about it then.

Cassie 44:40
And when you're having that conversation with your family about your relationships. You don't need to go into all the details like your parents don't need to know how often you're sleeping with your partner or like, you know, your condom usage policy like let them know the details of what they need to know, when you're coming out. It's really important to recognize that when you're coming out, this is hard enough for people that this is new to who don't understand this to accept, like, too much information is too much information. Like keep it at a base level. So that way they can understand and possibly, you know, ask questions if they need to.

Cassie 45:25
And the last thing is, I know we have been talking here about like polyamory and we're having different conversations, when you're talking to your family. Remember, they probably haven't read like the non monogamy, you know, dictionary or anything, keep language very simple. Recognize that they probably don't know a lot of these terms. So you know, oh, our relationship is in a hierarchy, or you know, hey, you know, I'm his secondary, primary, they're probably going to get lost. So keep it to like common words and phrases.

Cassie 45:58
And when you're having these conversations, you want to give the people that you're talking to some space, right. First of all space to have feelings, because this can be shocking, this can be something that really knocks, you know, people's feet out from underneath of them, especially if this is not what like, like, there's been no indication that you've been non monogamous before. And especially if they don't have anybody in their world, that is non monogamous. Anybody that they know is not monogamous can be very, very, very hard to deal with.

Cassie 46:30
So giving some space for that, and space for questions, right? If your family member or your friend is asking questions, out of care, be willing to answer some of those questions. Now, what I will say is there are certain questions that you want to like just cut off and be like, Nope, not gonna answer those, right? Anything like about your sex life, things like that. Just those are good things to just kind of say, I'm not going into that. Like that's, that's my personal information.

Cassie 47:02
But if they're reasonable questions, if they're questions that you can tell, they're asking, because they're trying to a, be curious or b, they're concerned, like, you know, give some space for that and try to frame when you're responding. Right. Rather than just being like, you're absolutely wrong. I've already thought about that. Grr grr grr. Try to frame when you're responding to your friends and family, with like, knowing their intention, saying like, I understand that you're worried about the kids. But I've already thought this through and this is what we're doing, I totally get that you are worried that this might impact my workplace, or I know you love us, and you don't want us or the kids to get hurt, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you can show that understanding that can kind of de escalate it for them. And it can also help you not get so worked up and angry when you're responding to questions that you think are completely unreasonable.

Josh 48:07
Whel and here's the other point of that, right, which is, it's this isn't like, you're framing this as them caring to make this easier for yourself. It's because it's actually really true. And, you know, recognizing people's intention is always an important tool that you can use, right? And when you're talking about stuff like this, you know, it's important to realize that the reason that we get the strong reactions from our family and our friends, right, you know, occasionally, occasionally with family, there's like a sense of like, How could you do this to me? Right, I will say, occasionally, that's there. But for the most part, what you'll get from family is that they do care. Right? And in their worldview, you know, this is something that they aren't familiar with, this is something that they probably think will destroy your marriage and relationship that's probably something they think will destroy your family. This is probably something that they think is gonna be bad for the kids, right? And so you know, if you can approach this with understanding that, while their actions and their responses may not be what you want, their intentions are that they really do love and care about you. You will make this easier for yourself, right.

Josh 49:17
They love you. And they're worried even if that worry is misguided, right, even if the way they're responding hurts or is inconvenient, it's important to keep that in mind for yourself. Right. And you know, with that being said, I will say as well. A lot of times a piece of that is due to misinformation, right? It's due to the fact that they aren't familiar with non-monogamy. It's due to the fact they aren't familiar with things. Right. And one thing that can be a really great resource for that is we did an episode while back was our 50th episode. So if you go to that was specifically for families and friends of non monogamous people to explain certain questions then that they had. Like will it destroy your relationship? And what will it do to your kids and those kinds of things. And why are people non monogamous? And what you might find is that they may be a lot more receptive to hearing that from somebody else than from you. Right?

Josh 50:15
So again, if you go to that's a resource that might be really helpful for you, because you can send that to them directly. Now, I want to caveat to that in the context of this coming out conversation the point to that is not that you come out by sending them that. That is not what that is designed to do. Right. But what that is for is when you have come out, now they have these concerns, and they have these questions, that can be a really great resource.

Josh 50:42
So like I said, if you want that episode, and we have, you know, a couple of different resources, ways you can send that to your family members without actually sending them like our whole podcast or our whole website or anything like that. Okay. And I know you had wanted to talk about arguing as well.

Cassie 50:59
Yes, you're coming out conversation shouldn't be an argument on your part. So and I know you might be sitting there, I mean, like, but what if they say this? Or what if they said that and grr, grr, grr, or they respond this way? It doesn't matter? Like, regardless of the response, right? This conversation is going to be the hardest one out of all of them, right? So you're coming out conversation, most likely is going to be multiple conversations, this isn't probably going to be one like, Oh, I'm out. That's it, there's probably going like this isn't how it works, right? These end up being conversations where even if they go well, right, even if your family's like, I completely accept you coming back and saying, but hey, what about this thing or that thing, right? So recognize that this is going to be the hardest for them, right? It's going to be the highest point in their feelings, it's going to be the highest point in their shock value.

Josh 51:59
There's a pretty big shock factor for a lot of people.

Cassie 52:02
It's gonna be difficult. So don't argue, if you recognize that you're getting into that place of like being argumentative, or their argumentative, just stop, you know. Offer to talk about this at another time. You know, after they've had some, some room to go through some of those emotions and have some of those feelings and to process. But your first coming out conversation shouldn't be a place where you're trying to like, let me tell you the statistics on polyamory. Let me show you this. And you don't want to argue those points. With your, with those folks. At that time, they're not gonna listen to anything you have to say.

Josh 52:40
I would actually suggest keeping this conversation relatively short. Because they're not going to be in a great place to hear much else, chances are, I mean, now, there may be the exception to the rule, it maybe the time that your parents are totally cool with it, or like, Oh, yeah, that's not surprising. We've known that for years or whatever. But for a lot of people, you know, family, friends, you know, there might be a big shock factor. And if there's a big shock factor, you know, this is going to be the time that they are least receptive to all that information, right? They're the least receptive to hearing those statistics, they're least receptive to understanding your reasoning and what you're getting from it and all of that. So I would actually suggest that you, you know, this is a coming out conversation, especially somebody who you don't expect this to be like silky smooth with that you plan on keeping that conversation. pretty short. I mean, really putting it in the space. I think, you know, speaking of intention, I think that when you're bringing it up, putting your intention into the space of why you're having that discussion with them, is helpful. Right, so they don't feel like you're just trying to make a point or something like that. And then, you know, be ready for a few questions or a rant or a cry or whatever happens next, and then maybe wrap up and have the rest of the conversation the next time. That would really be my suggestion. With it. Yeah.

Josh 53:15
And you know, yeah, again, don't argue stuff. It will not get you anywhere.

Josh 54:15
In that first conversation.

Cassie 54:16
In that first conversation, yeah.

Josh 54:17
Yeah, Listen, there may be a time down the road that you have to have a sterner conversation. Right. You know, in the case of a family member who is threatening to pull out of your life or, you know, who doesn't want to let your, you know, like you're having the conversation because, you know, using that Easter discussion from earlier, right, there may be the time you have to have the sterner conversation of like, then I'm not coming either. You know, there may be the time you have to have those discussions. But first conversation again, you really want to understand they're probably not going to be in a place to have a very productive conversation.

Cassie 55:02
So where do you want to go from here? I think we've covered really how to come out.

Josh 55:06

Cassie 55:07
But I think there's one big thing that we should touch on, as far as coming out.

Josh 55:12

Cassie 55:14
And we see this happen a lot, you know, we talked about not coming out, if you're not sure, if you're non monogamous and not coming out, if this is like maybe a brand new relationship, another time to really consider, you know, before coming out and before having these conversations with your family is to actually take the time to look at where your relationships are, right?

Cassie 55:40
Especially the ones that your family are going to be seeing. So like, if my family knows my spouse, or my family is going to be getting to know my other partners, because coming out is stressful, it is risky, it is challenging, it is all of these things. And the last thing that you want to do is come out and have, basically the naysayers because there might be some and to prove them right. Because your relationships are struggling because you are having these problems that they're worried about, because you are going through these things that really are the things that they're saying, or like, you know, hey, you know, you're going to break up, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, when your relationships really are there.

Josh 56:34
So is it about proving them right is about giving them ammo?

Cassie 56:39
A little bit of both, right? You don't want to end up later proving them, right, right. You don't want to end up later being in a position where like, You crashed and burned and had this horrible, you know, like, we end up getting a divorce because we opened up our relationship, and then having to deal with that later. And you also don't want in the meantime, while you're trying to incorporate new people into your life, for them to say, see, like, of course, we don't want to invite this person to Thanksgiving dinner, when I can see that your relationships falling apart. And I don't want to, you know, be a part of your marriage getting torn apart. Right?

Josh 57:18
Well, and this is where a lot of the bad impressions that people have of non monogamy, right? You know, everybody's like, Oh, I know, I know, this couple who, you know, they open up their relationship, or they had a threesome or whatever. And the next thing, you know, like their relationship fell apart. That is where this comes from. Right? It isn't that it was opening the relationship. It isn't that it was the threesome, it isn't whatever it is the problems that were-

Cassie 57:40
Already there.

Josh 57:40
Yeah, that were already there.

Cassie 57:42
Yeah, and it's, here's the thing, it's true. No matter like what structure of a relationship, there's going to be difficulties, there's going to be problems, things like that. But when we are dealing with the monogamous muggles, right, the last thing you want to do is, is be in a place where your relationship is struggling, while they're working on accepting this unique thing, this thing that they're not familiar with.

Cassie 58:12
So it's really important to make sure that you are working on your relationship and that your relationship is in order. When you're at that place of coming out, because you're going to have a spotlight on your relationship, the people in your life are going to be looking at these things. And those struggles, that, you know, are problems to begin with, are going to look even worse and be ammo and be even harder to get your relationship accepted when they're going on.

Josh 58:44
If you needed a good reason to fix your relationships, other than the fact that you really should fix your relationships and have better relationships and a better life. Yeah, don't like, you don't want to be in a place where people are. I mean, I really, like that's like, I mean really, like if you need another reason, besides just the fact that you want to have good relationships and not be, you know, chewing your partner to peices, and not be living a fraction of your life. Well, yeah, like you don't want people judging you when you're already having problems coming up because the shit going on in your relationships. So there's that. I also want to add that your life's just a lot better when your relationships are solid to begin with. So there's also that factor as well. Yeah.

Cassie 59:20
Yeah, it's just just recognizing that like-

Josh 59:24
But if you needed another reason

Cassie 59:25
Yeah, if you need another reason, but also you know, it does... It makes things more complicated when you are struggling to come out.

Josh 59:33
Well, it does. No it does because then now they have justification for like, Oh your relationships awful. Like you're arguing all the time and you two don't love each other like you're Oh bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, and you have another person involved. And that's why,

Cassie 59:44

Josh 59:44
And that's not why.

Cassie 59:45
And most of the time, it's not, right. Most of the time when you're having relationship problems. It's because you have those problems and maybe there are problems from opening up and things like that, that are unique, but a lot of the stuff there like the argueing Or the way you communicate, things like that has very little to do with the relationships, you know, that are going on outside of that other relationship, right like, but that's not how they're gonna see it. That's just not how they're gonna see it.

Josh 1:00:16
So if you want to get your relationships on a more stable footing, whether because you're coming out or just because you want your relationships on a better footing and stuffs not working, and you want to have a better life, and you want your partners to stop suffering and you to stop suffering. We can absolutely help with that go to, right? This is exactly what we help people do all the time. Right. And you know, you go there, like you go to that page, and you know, you'll see our calendar, you can pick a time, you know, that works for you. And then you know, you go to a short application page, fill out a few questions that we have. And then we'll get on the phone with you at the time that you pick. And we'll really dive deep into what is going on to your relationship, and where you want your relationships to be and how you can bridge that gap between the two and what the real problems are, that are preventing you from getting there. Because most of the time for most people, it isn't what you think, right? A lot of times people don't even really have a really good grasp on what the problems actually are like, you think it's one thing it's over here.

Josh 1:01:14
So we can absolutely help you with that. And, you know, absolutely happy to do that, like I said, whether it is because you know, you want to fix your relationships or whether it's just because you need some added incentive to fix your relationships. And it's you know, you want to be able to come out and have your relationships be solid and stable and not give your family, give your friends, give this to people that you're coming out to ammo to jump on, about why this isn't working, and why you shouldn't do it, and how this is breaking your relationship down and all that.

Josh 1:01:42
Right, anything else you throw in there. So like we said, folks, listen, really, at the end of the day coming out it is it can be a really touchy thing, it is a really touchy thing for a lot of people, right? Because there's a lot of feelings, there's a lot of risks, there's all of these things involved. But at the end of the day, you know, it's something that it doesn't have to be that hard, it is a problem that you'll run into. If you are non monogamous long enough, if you're polyamorous, more so long enough, right? If you have those relationships that are becoming a part of your life, right, because eventually you'll hit a point where you'll hit a cap on growth, like I said earlier. Either because of the practical aspects of things, or just because people don't want to let stuff grow anymore without feeling like they're acknowledged, right.

Josh 1:02:20
But the really easy way to tell when you're at a point of coming out, and who you should come out to, is that rule we broke down earlier, right, which is you come out about a particular relationship to particular people when not doing so would require you to exclude somebody from your life in a way that you otherwise wouldn't. Or to be dishonest. Right, because being dishonest, you know, and we didn't really go into this, right, but not just not just is that, you know, it may be a moral thing for you or things like that. Right.

Josh 1:02:48
But it also provides you, you know, like when you're being dishonest about things, you know, that doesn't tend to be a one time thing, right like, that tends to build on itself and build on itself and build on itself and build on itself. And now, you know, you wind up in a position where that's, that's really difficult to clean up later. And now when you are having to clean that up, not only are you having to explain the non monogamy and have that in the space with these people who you're in relationship with, but also why you were dishonest with them. And it's just not worth it. Right.

Josh 1:03:16
So as a general rule at the point where you you're at that place, right where you are facing that decision between being dishonest and coming out. You want to choose a route of honesty, but there are certain things to take into consideration, right, especially people's jobs, especially, you know, like people you may be relying on for support. And especially making sure, the most important piece of all of it, making sure that everybody who you're going to be outing by coming out is consenting and is on the same page.

Josh 1:03:47
Alright, but with that with the tools in here, like you have what you need to come out successfully, which isn't to say it's going to be easy, right? But that's what you need to make it work in. This is what you need to know to make it work. And again, if you're looking for help with your relationship, things like that, reach out to us, reach out book that call. We're happy to help you. And with all that being said, until next time.

Josh 1:04:17
Thanks for tuning into today's show, we release new episodes every week. So make sure to subscribe.

Cassie 1:04:23
If you're ready to transform your relationship and you'd like to see if you're a fit to work with us. Here's what I want you to do next, head over to and book an appointment to speak with our team. We'll get on the phone with you for about an hour and we'll get you crystal clear on three things. What's really not working in your relationships, what your dream relationships would look like and a step by step plan to close the gap and save your family even if nothing has worked before.

Josh 1:04:50
We talk with hundreds of non monogamous folks like you every year and here's the truth, building loving, thriving relationships, that doesn't happen on its own. You need expert guidance to make that happen. And unfortunately, when you're building relationships outside the box that's impossible to find and we get it. But that's exactly what we do. We've helped clients all over the world, save their families, get the passion back and become best friends again.

Cassie 1:05:14
So if you want to see if we can help you do the same head over to I'm Cassie.

Josh 1:05:22
And I'm Josh. Let's talk soon.