Casual Sex And Polyamory

Josh 0:00
Alright, so if you're polyamorous Is it okay to have relationships that are just about sex? No romance, no friendship, even just sex. So if you want to know the answer to that, stay tuned.

Cassie 0:15
Here at Touch of Flavor, we teach non monogamous folks how to overcome their obstacles and build thriving relationships.

Josh 0:42
This podcast is about answering one question, how do you create loving, passionate, secure relationships outside the box? Even if nothing has ever worked before? If you want to know the answer, you're in the right place.

Cassie 0:54
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Josh 1:04
I have the let's talk about sex, song in my head. Cassie. So what are we talking about today? Are we talking about sex?

Josh 1:11
We're talking about sex baby. Yeah, but more so than that, we're talking about it from the standpoint and the lens of if just sexual relationships are acceptable and ethical or moral in the poly land.

Josh 1:33
Yeah, you know, one thing that I find so interesting about our community is that we fight so hard and want so much to be accepted. And yet, it is amazing how much we judge each other. It's just It never ceases to blow my mind. And one of the latest things that we're seeing is this idea that it is not okay to look for relationships that are just sexual, that if you are looking for that it's immoral, there's something wrong with you. There's no way to do it, right. So we're going to hop in. And Cassie, you're going to have to start with this because I know this is getting really kind of out of hand, but you had to tell me about this, because it just kind of blew my mind.

Cassie 2:24
Well, and also you don't you don't hang out on the interwebs as much. But, you know, it's it's this concept. And so what it looks like is is folks who start the conversation with like, you know, I'm pretty busy. I've got, you know, a partner or two, and I'm not really looking for much more than that, I'm looking for maybe somebody else that I can hook up with, have some sexy stuff with, do the things. And that's that's what I'm looking for. Right? And it typically starts off with someone being very, like boldly honest with that. And then comes the flood of responses that are like, you're just looking to use somebody, or you know, why don't you just go pay for a prostitute? And why would anybody else ever want to just be your sex toy? That's so dehumanizing. That's awful. It's mean. And these are real comments, like, these are real things that people feel about this idea. Because it comes back to this idea of polyamory, being about having multiple loving relationships and how those relationships need to be fulfilling for everybody. And everybody should be treated equally. And well... etc.

Josh 3:53
There's too much stuff there. Let's just yeah, just too much out there. Okay. One thing about this, it's so interesting to me, is and you see this all the time, but just how much of a shift that is from kind of the tide even a couple of years ago, right? It's just really, it's just really interesting to me, but let's go ahead and let's start addressing some of this stuff like if you are polyamorous and non monogamous, Is it okay to be looking for people just to have sex with? Yes, of course, it is like, you don't even need to watch this anymore. Like of course it is. But if you need to hear more, let's actually talk about it. And let's break down some of these things that people are saying, right, and let's talk about where the problems really are. Because they're not in the places that people are saying, right. So, man, where do we want to start with us? Do we want to start with breaking down A couple of these myths?

Cassie 4:06
Sure, I think that'll probably be the easiest thing.

Josh 5:03
Okay, why don't you go ahead.

Cassie 5:05
So the first myth that I think happens quite often is this idea that by engaging in just a sexual relationship with someone that you are treating them less than that you are treating them as like a lower second class citizen, by having just a sexual relationship with them. And by having that desire for that relationship to be that way.

Josh 5:40
Well, and Cassie, I'm having an unusually hard time writing this down, because I feel like this stuff is just so obvious that it's like, hard to even start. I'm just gonna go for a minute. And then I guess we can go from there.

Cassie 5:54
Okay.

Josh 5:59
So here's the thing, right? And maybe I'll just start from an about, like, why people might want to be in a relationship where they're just looking for a partner who is only having who, you know, it is just a sexual relationship, and it has to you you've kind of started with it. But you know, maybe I don't have time. It may be you know, I'm pretty saturated right now. You know, maybe I, my time is taken up, but like, you know, I just, I have, like, some sexual needs, I'd like to get fulfilled elsewhere. Maybe it is, you know, I have, you know, especially in the kink community, you see a lot of, well, you know, I don't get this good example, like, I don't get my toping needs met at home, because Cassie ain't bottoming? Right.

Cassie 6:40
Nope.

Josh 6:41
And Amanda is asexual. So, right. So there's hundreds of reasons. But at the end of the day, I think that what I have to come to when I'm like, what would the reason be? I think the answer at the end of the day is it doesn't really matter. Like, it doesn't really matter what people's reasons are, because what we're talking about here is the right, and the freedom to choose the kind of relationships that you want, and the kind of relationships that work for you, and to custom design your relationships for the people in them, rather than to go with whatever society's telling you is the norm. And isn't that why we're all here? In the first place, we're all here. And we're all in this non monogamous space in the first place. Because we looked at what society said was available to us, and we go nah, that isn't really a good fit for me, I'm going to build something for myself. So when, you know, we ask that question of like, well, why, you know, why would somebody want it and this and that, I personally, I feel like the burden is on the other foot. Right? If you're gonna be telling people a way that they can't have relationships, then it falls to you to have a good reason why, right? If you're going to be restricting, grown, consenting people, humans from making their own decisions, and living their best lives, then the onus kind of falls on you to come up with a good reason why that needs to happen. And the problem is, none of the reasons that people give for purely sexual relationships being a bad thing. are good. So now we I mean, do we again, do we even need to break any of these down individually? Or is it like...

Cassie 8:50
I mean, there's...

Josh 8:51
I'm not usually in this much of like, I don't even know where to go mode.

Cassie 8:54
So really, I think there's a couple of things that I'd like to kind of stack if you're open to that.

Josh 9:00
Please.

Cassie 9:00
That come along with the problems here is that starting with this idea that someone is being used in this situation, or that you're treating someone less than is, if there's two people who are down for that? Who's being used?

Josh 9:20
Well, and by the, the problem that I have is by saying that right, by telling somebody that if you want this kind of relationship, it must just be for you to be used. You're taking away their autonomy, to make their own decisions, and to decide what's best for them. You're telling them no, listen, listen, listen. I know you think you want that. Right. But really, I know what's best. And the truth of the matter is, you know, so one thing that that we have, that we talk to our clients a lot about is this principle of treating your partners and believing that your partners are adults. But this doesn't just go for partners like this goes for just other humans period. Like, if you don't treat adults like adults, you're on a slippery slope. And when you're telling somebody, and then this is the problem that I have with this whole idea of it makes you less than, right? If you are you have somebody, they're like, hey, I want this thing and you're like you wanting that makes you less than your treating them like a child. And that's actually not okay.

Cassie 10:28
Yeah. And I think that is where the problems lie is that folks take the cases where things are being done incorrectly, and apply it across the board. And this is something that the non monogamous community does a lot. So, for example, if I'm going out and saying, Hey, I'm looking for a partner, I want to have somebody that I'm having an intwined relationship with, and then I get into that relationship and only use that person for sex. Well, yeah, I'm doing it wrong. Because the issue is not that I was looking for a sexual partner. It's that I wasn't being forthcoming with that, that there was agreements made that weren't kept that I did it under free, like under false pretenses, right? So there's this whole thing where we take when something is done the wrong way. And then we're like, okay, some people do it the wrong way. So this whole thing is bad.

Josh 11:34
I'm also trying to figure out this using people thing, because like, if you're looking for a relationship, where you just want sex, and I'm looking for a relationship, and I just want sex, and anybody who wants a relationship, where there's just sex is using the other person? Are we just, you're using each other?

Cassie 11:51
You're using each other?

Josh 11:51
Like, how does that work?

Cassie 11:52
Yeah, yep, you're using each other.

Josh 11:56
Okay? Wow, we're bumping this camera a lot too.

Cassie 11:59
And you're just not valuing that human as a human. And, as you said, when you were when you were talking earlier on, it kind of gets silly. Because I think for most of us, as non monogamous folks, we see the value in our relationships being different. If we didn't see the value in that, we would just be with one person. And if I mean, we would, if we were like

Josh 12:30
It's a good point.

Cassie 12:30
Like, we would just be with one person, and nobody else if there was no value in having different relationships, because any relationship you have with someone is going to be different than the one that you have with the other person.

Josh 12:44
Yeah, at the end of the day, you you get into non monogamy. And I think this is actually a quote from the "Ethical slut," which is, and this is probably my all time favorite quote, of any, any poly thing I've ever read. Right. But you know, we get to non monogamy and one of the points of that is that we have different places different people, our lives intersect, I'm not quoting that exactly, because I don't have it in front of me. Right. But you know, we intersect with different people based on where we're at and what works for us and what we want need from this particular relationship at this particular time, like, that's what makes non monogamy so amazing. And when you're like, yeah, so you know what I would say. Anything else you want to say that before we go further?

Josh 12:44
No, you can go ahead?

Josh 13:24
Okay. So, again, is it okay to just want a relationship that is just sexual? Yes. Totally fine. Totally fine. We have a few relationships that are just sexual. And you know what those relationships are freaking amazing. Right? Totally fine to want that. Play partners. Very hot, amazing thing to have. Right? So is it okay, yes. Why might you want it? Lots of reasons, but also doesn't really matter. If you want it, that's totally fine.

Cassie 14:05
And I think this is where people get a lot of things wrong is they feel like they, they get into these conversations, and they have to, like justify it. And when you're standing from that place of I have to justify what I want, then it feels wrong.

Josh 14:19
So but let's talk about so let's talk about where people actually stumble in this. Right, and how to do it the right way to where it's not a problem. So the first thing that I would put into place. So a couple let's talk about a couple mistakes I guess people make and how you can handle things correctly. So the first mistake that people make and really, I think the only way you know what makes this wrong is if you are not clearly communicating. You're not clearly communicating to that other person, what it is that you're looking for. So when we're talking about relationships and fairness, and I don't like looking at things in terms of equal, but when we're talking about fairness, the way we define fairness to our clients, because fairness, I mean, relationships are never fair, everybody's taking different things away and getting different things. When we talk about fairness, we talk about what makes the people in the relationship happy and healthy. So as long as this arrangement is making the people in the relationship, happy and healthy, totally fine. Where people run into trouble is where they don't actually communicate what they're looking for in this relationship. And people go into it with mismatched expectations as to what this is going to be.

Cassie 15:42
Yeah. And that's where the problems fall isn't in a not equal, distributing of things. It comes in when someone enters that relationship in with being given false facts, or thinking that something is going to be different than it is. And unfortunately, that is something that people do, because they're like, Well, I'm not going to be able to just find a partner who is looking for sex. So I will make it sound like it's something else.

Josh 16:15
Or they just don't know how to advocate for what they want. They're afraid to have the conversations, they think later, it'll be a good time. And now by the time you get there, people are invested. There's a lot of ways you wind up there. But yeah, I mean, absolutely. You know, you have to go in with clear expectations around what this is like, is this just a sexual relationship? Cool. We both agree to that. Yes, that works for us both? Cool. Is there any possibility for going to something more? Either one is fine, just as long as we both know. Right? But that's totally okay. As long as you do it, right. The second place, anything else you wanna throw on that before I move on?

Cassie 16:54
I think that's pretty clear.

Josh 16:55
So the second place that people I see kind of fall into trouble is that they aren't prepared if it becomes something more. And I think that this is a mistake. So one thing that we do see that I do think is actually curious to get your opinion on this. But one thing that we do see that that can be really difficult is you have people they go into a relationship expecting it to just be sexual. And now it evolves into something more even though that was what people both agreed to, you know, now, maybe there's feelings involved. And they aren't equipped to actually deal with that, because it was never considered as a possibility. What are your thoughts around that?

Cassie 17:37
My first one is always go with the expectation of this, we can control our actions, we cannot control our feels. And that will serve you and your partners and your life. So much better. Because the problem is a lot of folks think that they can go into these situations and be like, I can control my feelings and never catch to the feels. And that's not true. We don't know where our emotions and feelings around someone go. So you want to start off with the understanding that that is a possibility that you or your partner,

Josh 18:17
Or both.

Cassie 18:18
Or both, could grow emotions or feelings. And whatever the decision is past that point is fine. But you want to recognize that that is a possibility, and have a plan for dealing with that. If that arises, what are the next steps? What are the conversations? What do you do when that happens?

Josh 18:41
And I don't think that has to be something you have to like pre negotiated in advance now who get our play partners like now look, if this gets more serious, here's what's if one of us develops feelings, what's gonna happen, but you should know...

Cassie 18:50
Know yourself

Josh 18:51
for yourself. What that is, wow the sun just went behind a cloud and the color totally shifted.

Cassie 18:57
Right?

Josh 18:57
It's nuts.

Cassie 18:58
So interesting.

Josh 18:59
Right? But you should know that for yourself. And then I've got one more piece. But do you have anything else you want to tack into, like mistakes? How to do this right before...

Cassie 19:06
Yes, I have a couple.

Josh 19:07
Okay, go.

Cassie 19:09
So the other mistake that I think honestly, might be the biggest mistake is that people go looking for sexual relationships, to fix or to supplement another relationship. And I think that is one of the biggest mistakes and one of the biggest challenges that folks create, because they're going into it, not for just the purpose of hey, I have like sexual desires and needs, but they're really, really dissatisfied with the relationship that they have somewhere else. And they're hoping that this will solve that for them.

Josh 19:51
And really, we're talking about trying to use non monogamy to fix your relationship, which is an awful idea. And if you're wondering why I think was it our last episode

Cassie 19:59
Yeah, it was our last episode.

Josh 20:00
Watch our last episode or listen to depending on how you're consuming this.

Cassie 20:03
Yeah, but I think that is one of the areas that folks really, really get into challenges around and is doing that. The other thing that I would throw in as far as going about this the wrong way is that having the idea that you can't make a decision upfront about what you're looking for. And what we see is we see a lot of folks who are like, Well, I'm just not, I'll just leave it all open and not say anything. And basically, what you do is you let the other person dictate sort of where things go. So it's really a conversation around, what are your boundaries? And what is it that you're really looking for, and not being clear about it. So the person is stuck, because they're like, I don't actually know what I need and want. I'm not clear on that, and they end up in situations where they're now unhappy. So maybe you said to me, I'm just looking for a sexual relationship, this is what I'm looking for. And rather than taking the time, and really being sort of introspective and figuring out, if that's something I'm okay with, I just go, Okay, it's the idea of like settling for what someone's presenting you, rather than actually looking for what you want. We see this a lot with folks who have been single, or haven't been able to find partners where they just kind of settle for a sexual relationship, when really, that's not what you're looking for. And that's something that we see a lot with folks who are, who have been single for a long time is that kind of just going against what their real boundaries and what their real. wants and needs are, because that's what's available to them. And that's where you end up in situations where you feel used and you don't feel good in the relationship. That is just a sexual one, because it wasn't something that you really were comfortable or okay with.

Josh 22:17
Anything else?

Cassie 22:17
No, I think those were the ones that I was going to hit on.

Josh 22:20
Okay, so here's the last mistake I see people make is, this is on the flip side, actually. So they're going into a sexual relationship. And they expect that because it's just about sex, then they expect it to be easy. Right? Oh, you know, we're not gonna get and all that relationship stuff, we're not getting all that feel stuff, there's not gonna be as much time to divvy up. So it'll just be an easy thing to go to. Right. And this can seem easy, you know, whether you're just starting out, or whether, you know, maybe even you've been non monogamous for awhile, but you've run into problems in the past with relationships that are more involved, it can seem really easy. And the thing is to understand, that isn't actually the case. I mean, there's certain things that are gonna be easy, there's certain things that aren't, but at the end of the day, you are still the situation where you're going to need the tools and skills to approach this relationship in a good way. Right, you are going to need to be able to create agreements, you're going to need to be able to communicate, clearly, you are going to have jealousy coming up in your existing relationship, possibly. If you have challenges in your existing relationship, this new interaction is probably going to bring those challenges into a really kind of shine a really bright light on those negative challenges. And at the end of the day, on top of all that, you want to be able to be setting clear expectations and treating whoever your other partners are, whether it's sexual, romantic, whatever, in a way where everybody's happy, everybody's healthy, and you're treating them like a human.

Josh 22:31
Yes. And I think that's one of the things that I want to highlight from what you said, which is, you are in relation with the people that you're fucking even if it is just a sexual relationship. If you listen to the last word I just said, it's a relationship, you're still in relation to that person. So you still have to be able to show up to those interactions with being a good partner and with treating them well.

Josh 24:30
If you want to know how to do that. We have a free training we put together with just kind of the five foundational pillars that any non monogamous relationship including ones that are just sexual need to be healthy, and you can go ahead and grab a spot for that if you go to atouchofflavor.com, I gotta get a little taller now. atouchofflavor.com/pillars, put in your name, put in your email for whatever time you're available for. Grab up a slot go, through that'll be, you know, the best 35 minutes you have spent on your relationship up to this point. So like I said, it's such atouchofflavor.com/pillars walk you through exactly how to do this stuff the right way. But in summary, you want me to sum up?

Cassie 25:15
Go ahead.

Josh 25:15
Okay. In summary, is it okay to want relationships that are just sexual? Of course it is. Of course it is. And the onus is on anybody who tells you that it's not, right. It is absolutely, okay. It's totally fine. Those relationships can be amazing. It can be a lot of reasons that you want them. And regardless, like I said, Really, it's nobody's business, what your reason is, except the person you're having a sexual relationship with, right? And your existing partners, maybe. So with that, you know, you just have to make sure that you're going about it the right way. And really, at the end of the day, it isn't about equality. It isn't about, you know, this, it is about people being used, it's a really simple question of, I'm a consenting adult, you're a consenting adult, what is going to make the people in this relationship happy and healthy? And if the